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Icewind Dale seriesIWD1 Party suggestions requested but with a twist.(20 posts)(20 posts)
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Posted October 24, 2013
Hi all,

I really enjoyed the game Dragon Age Origins, best game ever, DA2 was... good for a couple of playthroughs. At present I am going through the DnD games as a suitable replacement until DA3 comes out.

I have gone through BG1:EE, and am now trying out IWD1 through GOG. I notice that I tend to start games at normal difficulty, get bored, and pump it up to the hardest difficulty after a day or so and restart. I love the feeling of every fight being potential deathtrap (like in DAO), and overcoming nearly impossible odds, so I might just start IWD at Insane difficulty, being pretty familiar with DnD rules.

What I like about IWD is having a party completely under my control stat wise, but being a hardcore power gamer I of course can't help but want to abuse this. Now having played BG1:EE under insane difficulty I found it over easy and abusable by just having a massive fighter (Half-orc) with 19/18/19/10/1/18 stats in the front of the group who basically never went down, so to combat the potential of boredom I came up with a system. Best stat 18/18(100), next stat 17, next 16, next 15, next 14, next 13 more or less. With say a Dwarf, elf or halfling you would +1/-1 to those stats, eg for a dwarf you could have 18(100) str and 18 (17+1) con, but then 15 (16-1) dex. The point of this is to have more realistic DnD characters, good but not feeling "cheated".

Simple plan, but quite a headache to apply. It means that you really have to make large sacrifices during character creation. Max strength for the front line, but then sacrificing HP with Con or AC with Dex, and if you have a Cleric or Mage you have to sacrifice spell levels (go less than 18 Int/Wis to trade for max Str or Dex) or sacrifice fighting ability if you multi-lcass (18 Int/Wis but less Dex/Str/Con).

My question is how would you make a party under these restrictions? Do you prioritize/sacrifice 1 HP per level or 1 AC (Con or Dex). Do you single class, Dual class or multi-class. With Dual and Multi classing you really have to prioritize and sacrifice stats even harder.

I'll only mention the important stats, but I am thinking something along the lines of:

-pure fighter (str 18(100)/con 17/dex 16 if I went Dwarf it would be str 18(100)/con 18(17+1)/Dex 15(16-1) with adjustments) melee
-multi fighter/cleric (str 18(100)/wis 17/con 16/dex 15), melee
-multi fighter/druid (str 18(100)/wis 17/con 16/dex 15), melee
-multi halfling fighter/thief (dex 19/con 17/str weak - easy choices) ranged
-multi fighter/mage (int 18/dex 17/con 16) ranged
-bard (int 18/dex 17/con 16/cha 15 - easy choices) ranged

My thoughts so far -
-People seem to suggest a bard and/or a paladin in many party makeups. I understand the need for a bard with some bard specific weapons in the game, but why a paladin? Having 17 cha would limit his usefulness in the front line in this build, so there would have to be a really good reason to have him. Are either of these guys worth having over a pure front line fighter with five proficiency points on longsword?
-I'll definitely keep the halfling fighter/thief. The rest is pretty debatable.
-I could boot the Druid or Cleric for an extra front line pure fighter if needed or I could boot the mage or bard for an extra front line pure fighter if needed.
-The reason I thought of going multi-class is because that way I get the Fighter Thac0s in my front and back line and the ability to use better armours/weapons on some characters. On insane difficulty exp will come hard and fast I think.
-I figure that AC can be improved whereas HP cannot, so I have taken to prioritizing Con over Dex for everybody.
-Fighter/druid can use fighter armour and still cast, so improves the druid, and makes him melee worthy 18(100). I am not familiar with Druids, so I might have messed his stats up bad though?
-I could conceivably dual some of the classes at a low level like mage or druid and have the druid in heavy armour early, but I'd miss out on some of the improved thac0 that comes with a late level fighter.

-Edit I have just started considering switching most of my characters over to slings instead of bows and going 18(100) strength as their main stat so that they're all passable backup fighters in a pinch while still having bonuses (+3 to hit +6 damage +a bit of dex to hit) at range... can't see many downsides to that at all.

Edit: So my question is what would you suggest for party members, and how would you prioritize the stats to best survive on Insane difficulty? Any changes recommended?

Please no spoilers about important plot points as I have only played IWD about 2-3 hours, but spoilers about equipment and what monster types to prepare for is fine.

Thanks in advance,
Ramon
Post edited October 25, 2013 by RamonNZ
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Posted October 24, 2013
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RamonNZ: Best stat 18/18(100), next stat 17, next 16, next 15, next 14, next 13 more or less...
This is a pretty common way of doing things in pen and paper D&D. It will definitely keep your min-maxing power-gaming under control.

Simple plan, but quite a headache to apply. It means that you really have to make large sacrifices during character creation.
Hard decisions can be good fun; looks like you've done a good job thinking things out and playing within your rules. That party looks good.

People seem to suggest a bard and/or a paladin in many party makeups. I understand the need for a bard with some bard specific weapons in the game, but why a paladin?
A lot of people like Paladins. There is no particular reason you need to have one.

As you point out, they don't work particularly well with your rules due to that tremendously high charisma requirement.

On insane difficulty exp will come hard and fast I think.
It does! I played IWD on insane, as well, and the experience rewards are astronomical. This actually does create a problem - your mage's level up faster than you acquire treasure, so your spellbooks will fall behind until later in the game. It's not a big deal if a fighter is stuck with only a +1 sword, but it is a big deal if a mage has 3rd level spell slots but doesn't actually know any 3rd level spells.

I figure that AC can be improved whereas HP cannot, so I have taken to prioritizing Con over Dex for everybody.
The thing is, improvements to AC from dexterity are additive to your other sources of AC. It allows you to reach levels that would not otherwise be possible. It's totally reasonable to prioritize one or the other.

Not sure what your question is, but it's a cool setup you have going and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to play through the game and have an enjoyable time of it.
Post edited October 24, 2013 by Darvin
Posted October 24, 2013
Thanks Darvin,

That information is really helpful, especially about experience gain.

... and the Paladin is definitely out then.

Edit: I changed the original post to have a question :)
Post edited October 25, 2013 by RamonNZ
Posted October 24, 2013
On Insane or Easy difficulty, the XP awards are doubled. So if you really want to make the game a challenge with your party, go with... normal difficulty (no adjustment to XP awards).
Posted October 25, 2013
Would it really be harder overall though? The beginning might be harder for a while, but after I got better HP, thac0, spells and gear it might become a walk in the park. That would be bad.

Have just started considering switching most of my characters over to slings instead of bows and going 18(100) strength as their main stat so that they're all passable backup fighters in a pinch while still having bonuses (+3 to hit +6 damage +a bit of dex to hit) at range... can't see many downsides to that at all 'cept for only 1 attack per round and a bit of range.
Post edited October 25, 2013 by RamonNZ
Posted October 25, 2013
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RamonNZ: Would it really be harder overall though? The beginning might be harder for a while, but after I got better HP, thac0, spells and gear it might become a walk in the park. That would be bad.
Probably harder at the beginning, as you noted, then would likely even out. I doubt it would be much easier, if at all. With the XP being doubled for both kills and quest rewards, your party really can gain levels quickly. So at any given point in the game you're going to be higher level than if you're playing on Normal.
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RamonNZ: Have just started considering switching most of my characters over to slings instead of bows and going 18(100) strength as their main stat so that they're all passable backup fighters in a pinch while still having bonuses (+3 to hit +6 damage +a bit of dex to hit) at range... can't see many downsides to that at all 'cept for only 1 attack per round and a bit of range.
I love slings for two reasons:

1) You can have a shield equipped when using them, so if your character is a shield-user it means you don't have to keep going into your inventory to switch from melee to ranged and back (like you do with a bow). Much less of a pain in the ass.

2) Slings add your STR bonus to damage dealt. And if your characters have 18/00 STR... that's not a bad deal at all.

You've got a lot of multiclasses in your party. Have you considered going with dual classed humans for some of them? Makes for some pretty decent melee hybrids and you're not splitting your XP awards between two classes for the whole career of the character.
Posted October 25, 2013
My only problem with slings is they are really goofy from a role playing perspective for characters other than halflings. For that reason alone, my fighter characters never used them if they can use bows or crossbows.

Definitely not knocking slings though. In my last playthrough, I had two halfling fighters with slings which was the first time I ever had fighters use slings and they were excellent characters. They only used their melee weapons if the enemy closed in (usually when breaking into a new area).
Posted October 25, 2013
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IwubCheeze: My only problem with slings is they are really goofy from a role playing perspective for characters other than halflings.
I don't get this statement. How so?
Posted October 25, 2013
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IwubCheeze: My only problem with slings is they are really goofy from a role playing perspective for characters other than halflings.
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Coelocanth: I don't get this statement. How so?
Too much Tolkien? :)
Posted October 25, 2013
Slings were widely used in the ancient world, and were the least-expensive way to raise a long-range infantry force. They fell out of favor in the medieval age for some reason, although it's not exactly clear why. This is probably where the concept of the sling as an archaic weapon comes from, since they had gone out of use long before the arrival of gunpowder. They were still deadly, however, and even armored soldiers needed to exercise caution.

One thing people don't realize with bows is that they chewed through ammunition extremely quickly, and an arrow was not cheap! That 1 GP for 99 arrows in D&D is a bit of a joke. The sling's big advantage was that it was far less expensive to equip and maintain a force of slingers.
Posted October 26, 2013
Hi all,

Thanks for your suggestions.

On the slings topic - using the shields is a huge bonus as well, considering my weaker dexterity... and yeah, huge strength bonuses for a reasonable ranged party right at the beginning of the game. And yeah, less annoying switching from bows with the shield - good point. There are some decent bows and crossbows in the game, so I might have 1 bow player, and 1 crossbow player perhaps more mid-gameish.

On the topic of dual classing:

I wouldn't do that on the Druid - 17 con and cha would use up my 18 and 17, so I wouldn't have the str 18(100) bonus.
Cleric - possibly could work - could have maces grandmastered and use the druid for healing early on.
Mage - also possible - a noticeable downside to that is that the Bard would (by necessity) learn most of the early level spells from scrolls, potentially not leaving much for the mage.

The main reasons for multi-classing really is just my greed for the thac0 and double the higher level benefits, especially since multi-classes can theoretically go to level 30/30 and have double the benefits. I'll miss out on some higher hp (and grandmastery), but since I theoretically have 4 off-tanks, having less hp should be ok. I can switch them out as necessary. Also if I dualled over early levels I'd miss out on a lot of thac0, grandmastery, etc, but if I dualled over later I'd have to deal with 1 or 2 useless characters for a long time.
-What I really wanted to Dual class however was the Bard(!), but that's not possible in IWD1 unfortunately (I tested it). Another Str18(100) character with 2 or 3 levels of weapon proficiency on a melee and ranged weapon on the team would probably fit the party build perfectly. Because I can't dual him though, the Bard will have to stay out of the off-tanking business and remain casting/singing/ranged.

Build 2, Some big changes in the party lineup after some thought and reading:
1) Human Paladin s18(100), ch17, d16, c15 or Gnome Fighter s18(100), c17, d16 - still undecided. Sling + longsword.
2) Half-elf Multi Cleric/Ranger is a common powergaming build. s10(100), w17, d16, c15. Sling+ mace perhaps.
3) Half-elf Multi Fighter/Druid s18(100), w17, d16, c15. Sling +dunno.
4) Gnome Fighter/Illusionist is also a common powergaming build. s18(100), i18(17+1), d16, c15. Sling +dunno.
5) Elf Fighter/Thief s18(100), d18 (17+1), c15 (16-1) Sling or bow.
6) Human Bard i18, d17, c16, ch15, s14 or so. Dunno at all for weapons.

Notes on above build:
This build gives me 5 fighters instead 3, and 4 or 5 casters (if I use Paladin), and 6 ranged. Great build.
switched priority to dex over con since I'll have 1 tank and 4 off-tanks to switch in and out to soak up and deal melee damage, and 16 dex gives +1 thaco ranged in addition to the improved ac, which is a bonus since I'll be doing a lot of ranged tactics with 6 ranged characters. With constitution only being 15 or 16 possible for most characters, and multi-classing for less overall hp, and being on insane difficulty, nothing about going head to head melee against enemies makes any sense anyway.
wisdom 17 is enough to cast cleric and druid spells up to level 7, and iwd only goes up to level 7 in priest spells, so perfect builds there.
intelligence 18 is enough to cast up to level 8 mage spells for both mage and bard. I lose out on level 9 spells on my mage, but some sacrifices have to be made for the strength bonus. Using the gnome +1 racial bonus to intelligence I can still reach intelligence 18. The bard can cover any spells that the illusionist can't learn, so there's another bonus of having him around.
multi-classing cleric with ranger I gain some druid spells later on, which is a better deal than fighter, and I can only get 2 profiencies max with any multi-classed fighter anyway, so it seems to be an improvement with no downside.
switching halfling fighter/thief to elf lets me have str 18(100).
Would potentially try out a Ranger/Thief, but that combination isn't allowed in IWD1 apparently.
The Strength bonus on 5 characters also means that I have not just a tank and off tank, but a tank and 4 off-tanks as well. Put them all in heavy armour except when they're thief skilling or casting perhaps. Also lots of carrying ability on 5 characters is a nice bonus.
I only haven't quite decided on the gnome fighter or human paladin for lead character.

Damn I just realized that an Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief could work killing 2 birds with one stone & giving me a bow character (dump strength). Could have both a gnome fighter and paladin in that build.
Post edited October 26, 2013 by RamonNZ
Posted October 26, 2013
I got hit with a thunderbolt of inspiration just as I posted the last message.

Killing 2 birds with one stone by having my mage and thief as the same person.

Not to mention that to overlook the awesome bows in the game, from a powergaming perspective would be very stupid. At least one character should be using bows, and he wouldn't need str 18(100) for ranged bonuses. Being an elf (+1 thaco bows) and high dex thief the Ft/Mg/Th is the perfect choice.

Build 3:
1) Gnome Fighter s18(100), c17, d16 (or d17, c16). Sling + probably longsword.
2) Human Paladin s18(100), ch17, d16, c15 (or c16, d15), w14. Sling + longsword.
3) Half-elf Multi Cleric/Ranger. s18(100), w17, d16, c15. Sling+ mace perhaps.
4) Half-elf Multi Fighter/Druid s18(100), w17, d16, ch 15, c14 (darn, min ch is 15). Sling +dunno.
5) Elf Multi Fighter/Mage/Thief i18, d18(17+1), c15(16-1), s15(enough for composite longbows early on). Longbow/composite longbow. Longsword and a shield when not using bow.
6) Human Bard i18, d17, c16, ch15, s14 (or s16, c14 for composite longbows). Bow and crossbow - whatever I find that the above elf won't use.

Notes:
This build gives 2 potential tanks, and 2 offtanks. It also gives 5 casters and 6 ranged fighters. I think I've achieved maximum efficiency here.
It also gives the benefits of having both the Paladin and Bard in the party.
Information on IDW1 Paladin wisdom affecting extra spells or spell levels he can get to is hard to find, but according to some tables I read for iwd2 at 14 wisdom the Paladin will be able to use all of the priest spells up to level 4, so that just meets the requirements to be able to cast the priest spells he will get.
Well despite the extra experience gain on insane difficulty level the triple classed mage shouldn't be levelling up before scrolls are available, that's for sure.

Can anybody see any glaring holes in this build? I think I'm done and ready.
Post edited October 27, 2013 by RamonNZ
Posted October 27, 2013
Don't know about flaws, but a couple things to consider:

1) A ranger gets an extra attack with a melee weapon if he has no shield equipped. It can be a good idea to give him a two-handed weapon if one's available that he can use.

2) While the FTR/Mage/Thief has all the bases covered, don't forget he'll be splitting his XP gains among all his classes so will level a lot slower.

3) Give one of your characters Axe proficiency (I'd nominate the Gnome for this). As for the FTR/Druid, you could go with scimitars which is a common suggestion, but I'd recommend something like Spear or Staff. A reach weapon will allow him to attack from behind your front line tanks.

There's nothing wrong with your party and it should do fine, but consider that since you have so many multclassed characters, you're effectively (with respect to XP awards) taking a party of 10 (3 single classed, 2 double classed, and one triple classed). This will slow down your level gains considerably. Which might turn out fine with respect to the dearth of spell scrolls, but may present issues with overall power levels for some of the characters. Of course, this may be much less of a concern if you're playing on Insane.
Posted October 27, 2013
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IwubCheeze: My only problem with slings is they are really goofy from a role playing perspective for characters other than halflings.
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Coelocanth: I don't get this statement. How so?
In any Forgotten Realms novels that I've read, I don't recall a single character using a sling. The closest I can remember was the Cleric Quintet series where the main character Cadderly chose a weapon that resembled a yo-yo rather than a traditional cleric weapon. Weapons of choice in such books are always, swords, bows, axes, hammers, clubs etc etc. To me, this just made slings (and darts too for that matter) seem a little out of place in the Forgotten Realms.

To add to that, in any game I played in a fantasy setting, only halflings used the sling as a ranged weapon. For everyone else, it was always about the bows, crossbows and thrown weapons like daggers, axes and spears. Look at Heroes of Might and Magic for example. Several characters use (or at one time, used) bows, crossbows and throwing weapons but only halflings ever had the sling. Except for IE games, the only other game where I saw a sling not being used by a halfling was an old game for windows 3.1 called Legion. The picture of the skirmishers showed many of them carrying simple weapons, one of them being a sling.

I also have to admit, the other factor behind my statement was my own ignorance. A sling, at first glace, seems more an oddity or a toy than a useful piece of equipment, never mind being a deadly weapon that could cause internal injures through leather armour. I was also unaware of the historical significance of the sling. Darvin's post got my curiosity going and after reading up a little on the sling, I will never think of them as oddities or toys again.
Posted October 27, 2013
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IwubCheeze: ...snip...
Ah, okay. I never read any Forgotten Realms books (as much as I love D&D, I was never interested in the novels set in the FR). I also know some of the history of sling use, so it never seemed odd to me, so that's why I was a little confused by your post. Cheers.
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Icewind Dale seriesIWD1 Party suggestions requested but with a twist.(20 posts)(20 posts)
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