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SimonG: On of these days I will look up that sociological study that explains why people have such a problem with pirates ...
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stoicsentry: Or you could just ask...
What people present as their reasoning often bears little resemblance what seems to be the actual reason. This goes for all manner of things.
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stoicsentry: Are you pro-piracy or not? You seem to go back and forth.
I really don't see why you assert that anyone against the letters must be pro-piracy or that anyone who is pro-piracy couldn't possibly have a valid reason that the letters were bad with which a not-so-pro-piracy person might agree.
Post edited January 13, 2012 by orcishgamer
It's not the first time when CDP does something stupid and then falls back when community outrage is to heavy.
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stoicsentry: 1. Are you pro-piracy or not? You seem to go back and forth.

2. I have explained why it's relevant. If you are pro-piracy then that is our major disagreement, not the letters. There is simply no way that we are going to agree about the letters if we so wildly DIS-agree about piracy as a whole.

3. Do you understand what I mean? How do you expect me to convince you that the letters aren't the end of the world if you don't think piracy is wrong in the first place?

For your pleasure, I will refrain from any analogies and rely on your good mind to see why this is a problem.

Actually, I would be more than happy to give him such a reply. He hasn't aggravated the heck out of me yet. :P
1. I am pro-piracy under certain conditions....thus it may seem like I am going back and forth when I am a bit of both.

2. The topic at hand(and the thread) is CDPR dropping the tactics they used...part of which is the letters they sent out and what people think of them. Whether you are replying to a "pirate" or not should not matter here. It doesn't matter about whether you think piracy is wrong or right(or as I do, that it's right under certain conditions and wrong under others) to see that extorting people in such a way is wrong.

I seem to think it's wrong, you seem to think it's right because you also seem to think pirates don't deserve to be treated fairly under the law. That's about it.

3. Read reply to number 2....our beliefs on piracy aren't the issue here but whether this was a moral action for CDPR to take or not.

4. It isn't a problem.......you've made it one, possibly to defend your points by making me look bad and thus my points look bad by comparison.

5. You need to look at this less from your heart and more from your mind, and take what i'm saying free of your overly emotional leanings in the matter & full of logic and common sense.

(Dunno if I worded that last bit right.)
Post edited January 13, 2012 by GameRager
OrcishGamer, some of what you said I agree with... at least partially. So I'll focus on a few points only, as my fingers are growing weary at this point.

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orcishgamer: And: "Because you used our property without permission. We have evidence to this effect and believe it will stand up in a court of law." Do you even know what copyright covers? It covers making another copy (usually for transfer to another party). You don't need a copyright holder's permission to use their product or I assure you public libraries and a whole host of other activities and institutions would cease to exist.
In such a case, you are using the library's permissions.

"It is wrong to use someone else's work when you have been denied permission to do so."
No it's not. See above.
See my above.

If you still hold to the same position, is software the only case where it is OK to use the work of others without permission? Or is this true in all cases? What is the difference?

"We call this by many names: trespassing, burglary and hey, even drumroll please... extortion. " No, we actually don't, those are different. They all mean something specific and none of them mean "using without permission".
How are they different in principle?

You own land. It is your property, your work. I step on the land and I am told to leave. I refuse to. I suffer consequences.

You own a flat screen TV. Your property, your work. I break into your house, steal the TV. I suffer the consequences.

You have a wallet. I say, "give me that or I'll kill you!" I take it without your permission, I suffer the consequences.

Through illicit means, you knowingly access materials that you have no permission to access. You suffer the consequences.

Same principle every time.

"We do not call taking one to court for these crimes "extortion." " No, but threatening someone with taking them to court, when you have unequal access to resources, for their life savings unless they give up their lunch money right now and without a fight smacks of coercion and I find it immoral.
This is extremely problematic.

So let's you have a ton of extra resources than I do. I key your car, deflate your tires and spray-paint your windows.

Will you take me to court?

Others agree. If you're hung up on the term "extortion", you're right, it doesn't fit that legal definition, however it is immoral and makes you seem like an asshole to a lot people, not something you want when you're trying to claim the moral high ground on an issue.
But here's what I'm not getting from you, is the pirate not being an asshole as well?

I see where you're coming from but why do you think one person gets to be an asshole to another and the other has to grin and bear it?

Because they have "more resources?" I don't know why that should be a defense.

A problem with the courts, yeah probably... but a defense?

Actually they were way higher than any fines I could find for using public transit without paying.
Why does the size of the fine vis-a-vis public transit matter?
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orcishgamer: I really don't see why you assert that anyone against the letters must be pro-piracy or that anyone who is pro-piracy couldn't possibly have a valid reason that the letters were bad with which a not-so-pro-piracy person might agree.
He's been making one generalization after another. Either he's too emotionally driven on this issue to see this and correct it or something less civil.....:\
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stoicsentry: Or you could just ask...
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orcishgamer: What people present as their reasoning often bears little resemblance what seems to be the actual reason. This goes for all manner of things.
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stoicsentry: Are you pro-piracy or not? You seem to go back and forth.
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orcishgamer: I really don't see why you assert that anyone against the letters must be pro-piracy or that anyone who is pro-piracy couldn't possibly have a valid reason that the letters were bad with which a not-so-pro-piracy person might agree.
Paragraph 1: Don't know what you mean. Elucidate?

Paragraph 2: I don't. They could.

But I am never going to convince someone that the letters aren't the worst thing in the world if they don't even believe piracy is wrong.

We are not discussing the core issue, we're building sandcastles in the sea here.
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orcishgamer: I really don't see why you assert that anyone against the letters must be pro-piracy or that anyone who is pro-piracy couldn't possibly have a valid reason that the letters were bad with which a not-so-pro-piracy person might agree.
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GameRager: He's been making one generalization after another. Either he's too emotionally driven on this issue to see this and correct it or something less civil.....:\
I'll admit to having an automatic emotional response to the subject, as I do to the legitimization of all classes of thievery in general. It's the day that I don't have an emotional response to immoral acts that I'll start being worried.

However, as much as I think you're a cool guy outside of this thread, I do believe you are discussing this particular subject dishonestly by refusing to discuss the underlying disagreement.

That is why I am responding better to orcishgamer.
Post edited January 13, 2012 by stoicsentry
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stoicsentry: Paragraph 1: Don't know what you mean. Elucidate?

Paragraph 2: I don't. They could.

But I am never going to convince someone that the letters aren't the worst thing in the world if they don't even believe piracy is wrong.

We are not discussing the core issue, we're building sandcastles in the sea here.
Oh stop saying this already. It's about as far from the truth as you can get, and a giant logical fallacy.

One can be anti-piracy and still not be for these actions based on how they were handled(not legal actions against pirates in general but these letters, their wording, how they were sent, etc), and just because one is partially or fully for piracy doesn't mean they can't be against this on the moral principle that such methods are immoral.

Whether one is for or against piracy isn't the issue here, but whether one finds extortion style legal tactics moral or not, regardless of what crimes they are used on.
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GameRager: ]Oh stop saying this already. It's about as far from the truth as you can get, and a giant logical fallacy.

One can be anti-piracy and still not be for these actions based on how they were handled(not legal actions against pirates in general but these letters, their wording, how they were sent, etc),
One can. You aren't. Apparently you want me to debate with a phantom of yourself.

Whether one is for or against piracy isn't the issue here, but whether one finds extortion style legal tactics moral or not, regardless of what crimes they are used on.

Have you responded yet to my explanation as to why this is NOT extortion?
Post edited January 13, 2012 by stoicsentry
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stoicsentry: 1. I'll admit to having an automatic emotional response to the subject, as I do to the legitimization of all classes of thievery in general. It's the day that I don't have an emotional response to immoral acts that I'll start being worried.

2. However, as much as I think you're a cool guy outside of this thread, I do believe you are discussing this particular subject dishonestly by refusing to discuss the underlying disagreement.

3. That is why I am responding better to orcishgamer.
1. And the day we all start thinking with our emotions and letting them rule us over logic and common sense is the day I dread the most.

2. I'm not being dishonest here, you're just bringing things into the debate(some not all of what you said) which I believe bear no need to be included in this debate, and which I think detract from the matter at hand....which is if you think using such letters(regardless of what crime the accused committed) in such a fashion is immoral or not.

3. Is it the only reason?

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stoicsentry: 1. One can. You aren't. Apparently you want me to debate with a phantom of yourself.

2. Have you responded yet to my explanation as to why this is NOT extortion?
1. Apparently you cut this part out "and just because one is partially or fully for piracy doesn't mean they can't be against this on the moral principle that such methods are immoral or see that such methods are immoral."

You seem to have been blinded by your dislike of pirates though if you can't see how such tactics aren't moral or fair.....or is it because maybe you do see it but refuse to acknowledge it if it get's the job done in your eyes???

2. Because it is extortion, many here & in the older thread think it is, and because of the slimeball tactics involved?
Post edited January 13, 2012 by GameRager
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pH7: 1. You're missing the point; it's about offering a quick and easy option as an alternative to going directly to court - which they have every right to do. Just like you and everybody else have the right to file a civil lawsuit against anyone you please.
No, YOU are missing the point - you are interchanging a biased lawyer company who benefits from these settlements with a police officer who is backed by the law. One is doing it to make a buck, the other is doing it because it's his duty to uphold the law. One will use tactics to maximise income, the other won't.

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pH7: a) They don't have to be as this is not necessary in order to file a lawsuit against someone.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Who doesn't have to be as what?

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pH7: b) Even if I own the game I'm not allowed to pirate it. Pirating isn't the same as playing an illegal copy - it's about sharing (you don't even have to install it yourself) a copy with others. Hence, even if you've bought the game (it just hasn't arrived yet), they have every right to drag you to court.
Pirating isn't always sharing - it can include sharing, but doesn't have to be. You're entitled to a backup in a lot of countries including mine. I can rightfully download a pirated copy although, you're right, I can't share it. That's why I always turn sharing off if I use torrents - or set it so low (1kb/sec) that I barely shared a megabyte or two before the game is down downloading.

If they can prove the people they're sending letters were involved in sharing the game many times over (and not just a tiny fraction of the game), then I actually wouldn't mind as such. However, in past cases this wasn't the case - and since they won't divulge their way of working, how can we not remain sceptical?

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pH7: c) I won't argue that some judges are techno-illiterate, but it's pretty clear that most people have no clue about courts either, so it's no wonder one can get baffled by some rulings. I believe it's mainly because people think a judge has the freedom to be lenient the way the offended has; e.g. CDPR dropping the fine against one pirate that had also bought the game - the judge couldn't have done the same as that would be against the laws. Further, people simply aren't aware of how many laws they break and/or don't see it as breaking laws. Even using a trainer on a legally bought game is illegal according to the EULA - I have no idea of how that would turn out in a court, but the developer would actually have a case - which baffles me too on a "human level", although it makes sense(?) in a legal context.
I know all too well how most courts work. A judge is appointed who has to listen to both sides and give a verdict using the evidence offered. The verdict, as you say, has to fit within the confines of the law BUT a judge also has the ability to use reasonable judgement meaning that he can even put laws besides him if there's a just reason for this.

If you own a license to the game and downloaded it (which, as I said, is legal in many places), he's well within his rights to drop the lawsuit - I think you underestimate what judges can do. It's up to the judge to determine the worth of a lawsuit - I doubt the case would ever fully even get to court before getting dropped.

And EULA isn't law - EULA has been thrown out of court before because the EULA agreement is only readable AFTER you bought the game. They then tried to circumvent this by adding a EULA URL on the box where you could read it, but that is still very iffy if you ask me. In the end, it's not even sure how far the EULA would count considering a lot of it breaks consumer laws - especially EU ones (US consumer laws are shitty at best).

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pH7: The only viable alternative to sending out those letters is to take uspected filesharers directly to court. How is that any better? I really don't get why people can get so upset when given a better alternative - its existence does not make the original alternative void.
This has been answered before - the point is they shouldn't be doing it like this in the first place - read below for why.

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pH7: 2. Actually, in Germany it is that simple. Whoever "owns" the IP (e.g. the landlord) is responsible for everything that IP is used for. Yes, it's a law I hope never will be passed where I live, but it is a law there where thses letters were sent out. If you can document that said IP shared your property illegally, then the owner of the IP will be held responsible, regardless of it being fair or not - it's the law.
Whether it's the law or not, doesn't matter - see, YOU don't get the point. That's exactly the thing - they focussed on Germany because it was much easier to get people to pay up because of this horrible law. Anyone with half a brain knows that it's wrong - old people with an open wifi shouldn't get sued because they're technologically illiterate. Most judges won't even know what an open wifi means or how to close it and they'd expect the average joe on the street to know that?

And THAT is the biggest point - that CD Projekt went after people in a country with this terrible law. That they could attack people using a law that is inherently unfair. In fact, I'll write an article about it on my blog because putting it here would be too long, but the way the current technological world works, means that lawsuits over digital works on small scale should never be punishable except with small fines because of how hard it is to stop people sharing a network or kids or anyone else from committing any sort of copyright breach. I don't think YOU realise how easy it is to break the "law". Even surfing the net and browsing sites automatically makes you a pirate since your browser will cache copyrighted images - that's how utterly insane the current legal system is!

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pH7: However, CDPR didn't use what the German legislation served them on a silver platter. Instead of going directly to court - where they'd most likely win because of this law - they contacted the person first, making sure that it was correct, even excusing one person that wouldn't had a chance to prove his "innocence" (he was guilty) in court. There's a lot of guess-work in this case, but that's a fact that shows that CDPR did not assume that accuracy of the method reflected the particular kind of pirates they were after.
Oh dear, now you're being daft - and naive. They focussed on Germany exactly because of the legislation which would mean people are more likely to pay up. It's called "leverage". Look it up.

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pH7: Fairytales about MAC adresses? Yes, I know MAC addresses can be changed and even spoofed (wouldn't be much of a point in this context, though), but I also know that less than 1% actually does this on a regular basis. As far as I can tell, you'd have to change your MAC several times during the download of TW2 for it to have any effect. The inconvenience of it alone would be enough for people to rather take their chances in the big legal letter lottery.
Again you miss the point. They claimed their system was waterproof in a statement made before. My point was that there's no way this is true - not that many people use MAC spoofing (which, incidentally, can be done automatically by some of the better torrent programs - IP conceilment as well).

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pH7: 3. There's a lot of crap talk, yes, but to me it's more crap coming from the pro-piracy side of it. On one hand you expect CDPR to waive any and all legal rights they have to defend their property if you think it could potentially hurt someone, and on the other hand you reserve the "right" to willfully and knowingly contribute to spreading their property illegally because you yourself don't find it morally objectionable.
Besides the question. WE are their customers, they have to appease us, not the other way around. If they pull a move that pisses off everyone, they have to pay for it. If they talk crap and say nonsensical things, then they are to blame for that.

Honestly, your entire post basically says "I'm missing the point". You're saying a lot of stuff that is true but completely besides the question.
1. Emotion and reason are not mutually exclusive. Informed by reason, emotion is a powerful and beneficial tool.

2. Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about you. All the more reason to look at the underlying disagreement.

3. I do not see another reason, other than the fact that we have each other buried in a wall of text, trying to make all kinds of points here, there and everywhere.

I am trying to simplify this discussion as best as possible. We must work from the ground up. Piracy is the ground.

Edit:

2. Because it is extortion, many here & in the older thread think it is, and because of the slimeball tactics involved?
Understand where I'm coming from here for a second.

First, I write a response explaining why I do NOT believe that it is extortion, proper.

Next, you respond that it is extortion because.... it is extortion. And it's a slimeball tactic.

Meanwhile, you position yourself as the paragon of reason and I'm just over-emotional.

Really?

GR, 3 A.M. here, so I gotta go. Feel free to respond, and I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.
Post edited January 13, 2012 by stoicsentry
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stoicsentry: 1. Emotion and reason are not mutually exclusive. Informed by reason, emotion is a powerful and beneficial tool.

2. Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about you. All the more reason to look at the underlying disagreement.

3. I do not see another reason, other than the fact that we have each other buried in a wall of text, trying to make all kinds of points here, there and everywhere.

I am trying to simplify this discussion as best as possible. We must work from the ground up. Piracy is the ground.


4. Understand where I'm coming from here for a second.

First, I write a response explaining why I do NOT believe that it is extortion, proper.

Next, you respond that it is extortion because.... it is extortion. And it's a slimeball tactic.

Meanwhile, you position yourself as the paragon of reason and I'm just over-emotional.

Really?

GR, 3 A.M. here, so I gotta go. Feel free to respond, and I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.
1. Yes but in matters of law and in some debate it should not be the overriding force.

2. There's no reason to as it does not bear on this matter imo. As I said before, I would consider this immoral whether I was for or against piracy and I suspect many who are against it feel or are the same way(though not all obviously).

The matter at heart is whether CDPR's actions in sending the letters(and by extension this tactic used against anyone accused of any crime.) is immoral or not.

3. Well then we can start by dropping any generalizations and unneeded questions......sound good?

4. I say it is extortion(again not CDPR using any legal tactics just this method) because it is from my experience and from reading into the issue, including what other more knowledgeable minds have to say on the subject.

Heck anyone with common sense & a little time for research into such tactics can see this, and also if you check the older thread several people including one who has legal experience agree with me and make replies which back my point up quite nicely I think.

And it is a slimeball tactic if several people in the legal field & society in general(who are anti-piracy even) decry such tactics(I think someone mentioned in the old thread several people who also decried these tactics.)

And yeah, you may have some good points there if you stopped bringing emotion into this topic so much.....just my two cents. :P....:)

And gnite.....talk again tomorrow I hope?
Post edited January 13, 2012 by GameRager
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Wishbone: ...
Precisely. "I don't condone piracy" and "I don't condone blackmail" are not mutually exclusive statements. It's perfectly possible to be against both. Personally, I'm a little worried about all the people here who do seem to condone blackmail.

The end doesn't justify the means.
Well, it would seem I would be one of those who condone blackmail, but I don't see it as blackmail rather as justified legal fine with a nice deterrent effect. Problems are false positives, that's right, but apart from DRM and good services and this there is nothing more one can do against piracy. Since DRM is also not available there is practically no risk for pirates. I don't like this at all.
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GameRager: One of the issues I had was the amount being asked for in the letters, among other things. I don't get why CDPR(If they felt they had to go this route) didn't just use a cheap lawyer/service/program to get the IPs of infringers and then send out the letters themselves to save costs.
My personal guess ist that CDP was approached by those lawyers on the Gamescom, or at least lured. This was CDPs first "major AAA release" and even though they might have trusted us, they still had a lot to lose (I'm pretty sure if TW 2 had bombed, it would have taken CDP Red with them). Being "new" on the big boy turf, they wanted at least some "saftey". And that's were the law firm came in. They bullhshitted CDP into believing that they had a 100% failproof way of finding pirates and only pirates. Which, as I explained in the other thread, is somewhat "possibel" thanks to germanys flawed (but improving) way of identifying a pirate legally (you are responsibel for you ip, so they only had to connect an ip to a torrent -bam- 100% accurate).

Those PR messages by CDP (the later, better ones that is) really sounded like they had no real clue about how this law firm is working. Just that it is suppossed to be "100% accurate" by some "new technique".

And the law firm offered them a very sweet deal (as they gained most from the extorted money, and not from CDP). CDP wasn't expecting the outcry (they have never been very good at foresight of community reactions *cough*comingoutofbeta*cough*) and so it seemed like a win-win for them.

Maybe I'm my view is to friendly towards them, but I want to believe that GOG and CDP are one of the god guys.
I dont get this whole crap.... A company releases a product that isnt a pain for the customer to use and then goes after the pirates whislt completeley unafecting the original customers yet people still go nuts...