Posted January 28, 2012
![dada_dave](https://images.gog.com/3ba5834e43bc6d34d1be9ae6e9419c6e422ffade7ede2697a16550e533cc7319_forum_avatar.jpg)
dada_dave
Once New User
Registered: Oct 2010
From United States
![Metro09](https://images.gog.com/b7d5a5f765019109a3e8c002b4b8d5cbf9bf45b901ac045529f4ba1b26cc6e17_forum_avatar.jpg)
Metro09
Your Ad Here
Registered: Sep 2009
From United States
Posted January 28, 2012
Nothing to see here, just a bunch of gross misunderstanding of American Constitutional law.
![cjrgreen](https://images.gog.com/9daa6d68f78f5480145e856dfb77fb12a0c41b6de147e8b63aac5f26adc76911_forum_avatar.jpg)
cjrgreen
New User
Registered: Apr 2011
From United States
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dada_dave
Once New User
Registered: Oct 2010
From United States
Posted January 28, 2012
Good to know, I didn't know what PGP had or not - also I don't pay much attention to the conspiracy theory crowd :).
Post edited January 28, 2012 by crazy_dave
![TerrorForHire](https://images.gog.com/7f4452ce3595732cfee3e137887930787076019e658f3bb95ee4d9989f02ab02_forum_avatar.jpg)
TerrorForHire
Me Willie
Registered: May 2011
From United States
Posted January 28, 2012
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/01/bfc1530eae662705ad12113809e40d35cd567ca2_t.jpg)
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orcishgamer
Mad and Green
Registered: Jun 2010
From United States
Posted January 29, 2012
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/11/0c7dda6f5e172f5f06e3964e3a96f4c99cd1ebfc_t.jpg)
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/11/07f3fc8b914eb79c8197022f6d72ef164e252052_t.jpg)
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/08/8dfa433b8de84cc58a98159cdb0da835276ed67f_t.jpg)
Can you be forced to give the combination/password to a safe?
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/01/bfc1530eae662705ad12113809e40d35cd567ca2_t.jpg)
The story I read indicated she did, but I'm not really up to searching for it tonight.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by orcishgamer
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stoicsentry
GOG's Risus GM
Registered: Feb 2011
From United States
Posted January 29, 2012
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/12/dbecf7ad7b6ad22820b3a75aeb5a65027f0ff80e_t.jpg)
USA strikes again. Does your legal system really doesn't respect even such standard rules like
nemo se ipsum accusare tenetur ? (nobody is forced to accuse himself)
In civilized countries, no court can force a suspect to do ANYTHING , even as simple as providing a password to your computer.
The ruling determines that the Fifth Amendment, which protects people against self-incrimination, does not apply in this case.
What the hell?
Post edited January 29, 2012 by stoicsentry
![cjrgreen](https://images.gog.com/9daa6d68f78f5480145e856dfb77fb12a0c41b6de147e8b63aac5f26adc76911_forum_avatar.jpg)
cjrgreen
New User
Registered: Apr 2011
From United States
Posted January 29, 2012
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/01/bfc1530eae662705ad12113809e40d35cd567ca2_t.jpg)
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/12/ac9e0d8c39837ca77f35db86b4efaaacfa991553_t.jpg)
There's a whole legal formality called "production" involved. Production is not just turning over the evidence that is demanded. It's turning it over in such a way that your adversary can connect it solidly to you. You can't be compelled to do so, if the act of doing so would allow your adversary to make the connection between the evidence and you that he otherwise couldn't do.
This is an oversimplification, but it may serve to explain the point of the judge's ruling.
Say the prosecution thinks it's your computer, but can't prove it. If they demand that you decrypt files on it, and you do so, that would prove the connection between you and the files. It doesn't matter whether you do so by giving them your passphrase, or typing in your passphrase privately, or decrypting the files by any other means. It would be self-incrimination, and your lawyer would rightly direct you to refuse.
On the other hand, say the prosecution damn well knows it's your computer, that they know you know it's your computer, and that you have encrypted files on it, and that they can prove it. Now, the act of decrypting the files no longer incriminates you. They already know they're your files. (This is called the "foregone conclusion doctrine".) Because they already know and can prove your relationship to the files, you are not incriminating yourself by decrypting them, and you can no longer refuse to do so.
What the judge actually ruled was not unusual for a "foregone conclusion" case. It has three points:
1. The prosecution is entitled to read the files in the clear, and the defendant is ordered to make it so.
2. The prosecution must not use the defendant's compliance with the order in proving "production". They must base their proof of "production" on what they already know. (They know the computer was found in the defendant's bedroom. They know the defendant talked about the computer in a way that identified that computer as hers. They know the computer had the defendant's name as its host name. The judge said that was enough.)
3. The defendant is entitled to at least a copy of the disk.
The judge's order said the disk was encrypted with PGP Desktop. Full text here:
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf
The whole thing comes down to whether the act of doing so incriminates you. If the prosecution can't prove it's your box, they can't compel you to produce the key, not because they can't compel you to yield up the evidence inside, but because they can't compel you to prove it's your box.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by cjrgreen
![dada_dave](https://images.gog.com/3ba5834e43bc6d34d1be9ae6e9419c6e422ffade7ede2697a16550e533cc7319_forum_avatar.jpg)
dada_dave
Once New User
Registered: Oct 2010
From United States
Posted January 29, 2012
![avatar](/www/default/-img/newuser_big.png)
There's a whole legal formality called "production" involved. Production is not just turning over the evidence that is demanded. It's turning it over in such a way that your adversary can connect it solidly to you. You can't be compelled to do so, if the act of doing so would allow your adversary to make the connection between the evidence and you that he otherwise couldn't do.
This is an oversimplification, but it may serve to explain the point of the judge's ruling.
Say the prosecution thinks it's your computer, but can't prove it. If they demand that you decrypt files on it, and you do so, that would prove the connection between you and the files. It doesn't matter whether you do so by giving them your passphrase, or typing in your passphrase privately, or decrypting the files by any other means. It would be self-incrimination, and your lawyer would rightly direct you to refuse.
On the other hand, say the prosecution damn well knows it's your computer, that they know you know it's your computer, and that you have encrypted files on it, and that they can prove it. Now, the act of decrypting the files no longer incriminates you. They already know they're your files. (This is called the "foregone conclusion doctrine".) Because they already know and can prove your relationship to the files, you are not incriminating yourself by decrypting them, and you can no longer refuse to do so.
What the judge actually ruled was not unusual for a "foregone conclusion" case. It has three points:
1. The prosecution is entitled to read the files in the clear, and the defendant is ordered to make it so.
2. The prosecution must not use the defendant's compliance with the order in proving "production". They must base their proof of "production" on what they already know. (They know the computer was found in the defendant's bedroom. They know the defendant talked about the computer in a way that identified that computer as hers. They know the computer had the defendant's name as its host name. The judge said that was enough.)
3. The defendant is entitled to at least a copy of the disk.
So I'm not sure about a lock combo, but a judge did rule that you don't have to give up a password, but I'm not sure where the distinction is. I found crjgreen's analysis very interesting.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by crazy_dave
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TerrorForHire
Me Willie
Registered: May 2011
From United States
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keeveek
NOPE
Registered: Dec 2009
From Poland
Posted January 29, 2012
![cjrgreen](https://images.gog.com/9daa6d68f78f5480145e856dfb77fb12a0c41b6de147e8b63aac5f26adc76911_forum_avatar.jpg)
cjrgreen
New User
Registered: Apr 2011
From United States
Posted January 29, 2012
Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination doesn't apply directly to civil cases. It does apply indirectly: if your testimony in a civil case (or a non-trial proceeding such as a grand jury or Congressional investigation) might implicate you in a crime, you can "take the Fifth".
Because this could prevent a lot of valuable testimony, it is a common practice to bargain for immunity, when a witness testifies in a civil case, or a witness not charged testifies in a criminal case. To the extent that you are granted immunity, the evidence you give can't be used against you in a criminal trial, and you can't take the Fifth to avoid testifying.
Because this could prevent a lot of valuable testimony, it is a common practice to bargain for immunity, when a witness testifies in a civil case, or a witness not charged testifies in a criminal case. To the extent that you are granted immunity, the evidence you give can't be used against you in a criminal trial, and you can't take the Fifth to avoid testifying.
![stuart9001](https://images.gog.com/5c9be127c9318ed165cb9690eea57cfdc06c921381ebd8cd960411df45b76bc5_forum_avatar.jpg)
stuart9001
Advertise here!
Registered: Jun 2011
From United Kingdom
Posted January 29, 2012
In the UK yes, section 4 of RIPA is all about "notice to surrender" passwords safe combinations/keys. 2-5 years in prison (+ fines of course) for failure to comply depending on what is being investigated.
The UK is a total police state, the law doesn't even pay lip service to the universal declaration of human rights (or the ECHR or human rights act) any more.
The UK is a total police state, the law doesn't even pay lip service to the universal declaration of human rights (or the ECHR or human rights act) any more.
![Tormentfan](https://images.gog.com/6c74a95f4e98e5dc9bd0cbf5d0ea2c64623cbd305b13d05a9980d9630a1fb3bf_forum_avatar.jpg)
Tormentfan
Sim Salla Bim
Registered: Nov 2010
From Other
Posted January 29, 2012
Actually, thinking about this again.. Can't she just claim that the encrytion is her method of DRM, protecting her property on her HDD?
I know it's illegal to break DRM so would the police even be allowed to try breaking her encryption even if they have her pc?
I know it's illegal to break DRM so would the police even be allowed to try breaking her encryption even if they have her pc?
![overread](https://images.gog.com/a9f079ed175bac7f06286fad7bf7f33a0ae653d11760e2227de65d0502ee5256_forum_avatar.jpg)
overread
Hat Husky
Registered: Nov 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted January 29, 2012
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2011/12/bc1028d05b662d2d0c2c7a7e03fc69ac29c78c8f_t.jpg)
The UK is a total police state, the law doesn't even pay lip service to the universal declaration of human rights (or the ECHR or human rights act) any more.