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General discussion (archive)WikiLeaks Cablegate(395 posts)(395 posts)
(395 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 04, 2010
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Dascryborg: ...
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Fenixp: Oh no I fully approve of the shooting, they've had 2 choices and both of them were quite valid. Of course they chose the one to save their necks.

The fact that people DO indeed form uneducated opinions doesn't necessarily mean they should not get the access to such information; "Certain things have no place in our daily lives such as the marines firing on "innocents" video. " - from your posts, I have understood you're basically saying that. People should have access to all information, not just those some guys somewhere 'approve' of.
Ahh, I see what you're saying. Yes, people have the right to know these things but people are mislead because they only point out that a person has a camera and not that there are guys in the back ground with an RPG and Automatic Weapons. People just need to actually WATCH the film and not just the edited popups!

I do agree that people do have the rights to certain information. However there is a reason why there is classified information and one of those reasons is due to the lack of experience and knowledge on a subject. Of course some classified materials like perhaps that of unethical treatment of detainees should be known as it is not right to treat a prisoner to torture no matter how heinous they may be.

I believe in the classification of information as most people do not need to know about certain things.
Posted December 04, 2010
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Gundato: Let's say you need to go get a surgery done. Doesn't really matter what. And let's say you have a four year old kid.
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Fenixp: 4 years old kid clearly won't be able to make any actual decisions, there's a reason for age limitations. 20 years old student, on the other hand, already does have the capacity: And he does so, on daily basis. Now the information on wikileaks is on the level of what you'd get in newspaper; it's just something someone doesn't want people to know. With or without wikileaks, people would form uneducated opinions on important subjects - however, with it, educated people can actually know what the hell is going on.
And Doogie Howser could have used the video to perform the surgery himself.

Maybe the 4-year old thing was a bit too extreme, but you have to admit, there is information that people really aren't mature or knowledgeable enough to handle. This is why we (generally) don't put bomb-making tips in the Sunday Newspaper.

Or if you want to go down the rabbit hole of "it is always better to give the maximum information", military tactics. Even something as simple as what the patrol patterns are for the local Embassy.
Sure, a lot of people could use that information to make "educated" decisions and to point out inefficiency and ways to save money. And maybe a few retired vets could even give tips for how to clog up some of the weaknesses.
Then there will be idiots who say "When have they ever had a single person attack the Bobapotzistanian Embassy? We only need one guard!"
Then there will be the "educated" masses who will argue that the entire thing can be handled with facial recognition and AI-driven remote controlled weapons platforms.
Then there will be the people who really SHOULDN'T have that information (The Fredislovakian Liberation Front!) who will use that information for bad stuff.
Posted December 04, 2010
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Dascryborg: I believe in the classification of information as most people do not need to know about certain things.
And that attitude is why the government and military have lost pretty much all credibility when it comes to their judgment on whether something should be classified. Work on changing that attitude, towards thinking not that information should be disseminated to the public on a need to know basis, but rather that the public has a right to know and that there needs to be a very good reason to keep any information from being made available to the public. Until members of the government and members of the armed forces change their attitude organizations like Wikileaks will not only continue to enjoy a good measure of public support, but will remain essential for any society that wishes to have any pretense of being a free democracy.
Posted December 04, 2010
How exactly has any of this latest information released been surprising to anyone? Seriously...

Afghanistan is a nest of corruption. Large chunks of Mexico are controlled by drug cartels. Israel has plans to take out Iranian nuke production. The Saudis don't like Iran. Russia is a largely corrupt nation. Berlusconi is corrupt.

How is ANY of this a revelation? Anyone with any interest in the world and an ability to draw conclusions already knew all of this.
Posted December 04, 2010
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Dascryborg: Ahh, I see what you're saying. Yes, people have the right to know these things but people are mislead because they only point out that a person has a camera and not that there are guys in the back ground with an RPG and Automatic Weapons. People just need to actually WATCH the film and not just the edited popups!

I do agree that people do have the rights to certain information. However there is a reason why there is classified information and one of those reasons is due to the lack of experience and knowledge on a subject. Of course some classified materials like perhaps that of unethical treatment of detainees should be known as it is not right to treat a prisoner to torture no matter how heinous they may be.

I believe in the classification of information as most people do not need to know about certain things.
I've seen the whole video (almost 40 minutes) and I have to agree that the incident with Reuters reporters was accident. But what really troubles me is this:
1. If the guys in helicopter can see from such distance if the person is carrying an AK why can't they see two children in the van? Further more they were saying that people from the van were picking up weapons which they couldn't see because of their position.
2. Right before the first Hellfire is fired you can clearly see man walking in the front of building. He is not carrying any weapon but helicopter crew fires the missile anyway.
Do they assume that he is also enemy? What about ROE?

I don't know if I can trust people like Ethan McCord (who was eyewitness of this whole incident) but the death toll of Iraqi non-combatants is estimated up to 108000 so I have to question myself - how do these people die? Are incidents like the one with helicopter really unusual?

And I don't think that leak of these classified documents can endanger anybody except war criminals and people who have interest in this war to continue. After leak of "Pentagon Papers" you could hear exactly the same arguments about putting life of the American soldiers in peril which was proven to be untrue.
Post edited December 04, 2010 by Mal_Khar
Posted December 05, 2010
I still think this man did a great thing. Going to download everything posted and force my step mother to read it all. >=)
Posted December 05, 2010
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Crassmaster: How exactly has any of this latest information released been surprising to anyone? Seriously...

Afghanistan is a nest of corruption. Large chunks of Mexico are controlled by drug cartels. Israel has plans to take out Iranian nuke production. The Saudis don't like Iran. Russia is a largely corrupt nation. Berlusconi is corrupt.

How is ANY of this a revelation? Anyone with any interest in the world and an ability to draw conclusions already knew all of this.
I agree. I could name at least two people in my flight in boot camp I was pretty sure were white supremacists. The USA government mas made little effort, or just stopped trying, to screen out these individuals at the "sign up" stage. I mean, why don't they make us take the same "hypothetical ethics" quiz that most major store chains like Barnes & Noble or even NAPA Auto Parts makes their potential employees take? I'll tell you why, because the military wants more meat for the grinder, no questions asked.
Posted December 05, 2010
We have to see, we have to know.
Posted December 05, 2010
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Electronicescape: We have to see, we have to know.
But my point was...we already did know. Anyone who is in any way keeping up on international affairs knew these 'EARTH SHATTERING REVELATIONS' already.
Posted December 05, 2010
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Electronicescape: We have to see, we have to know.
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Crassmaster: But my point was...we already did know. Anyone who is in any way keeping up on international affairs knew these 'EARTH SHATTERING REVELATIONS' already.
Ahem, yes...I was quoting Hellraiser II.
Post edited December 05, 2010 by Electronicescape
Posted December 05, 2010
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Electronicescape: We have to see, we have to know.
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Crassmaster: But my point was...we already did know. Anyone who is in any way keeping up on international affairs knew these 'EARTH SHATTERING REVELATIONS' already.
Yes, and there's no doubt that (at least up to now) most documents from "cablegate" where more in the comedy then in the revealing category.
Which puts the governmental counter-argument of putting lives in danger right next up to "you gotta fucking kidding me".
Posted December 05, 2010
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it's really about the confirmation of things we already knew. To my mind it removes a certain ease of deniability from the state that hopefully we the people can use if even in some small way for greater accountability. At least, that's what I hope the outcome might be.
Posted December 05, 2010
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Crassmaster: How exactly has any of this latest information released been surprising to anyone? Seriously...

Afghanistan is a nest of corruption. Large chunks of Mexico are controlled by drug cartels. Israel has plans to take out Iranian nuke production. The Saudis don't like Iran. Russia is a largely corrupt nation. Berlusconi is corrupt.

How is ANY of this a revelation? Anyone with any interest in the world and an ability to draw conclusions already knew all of this.
Exactly, but see people think they should have the right to know the OPERATIONAL strategies of these topics, which to say the least if everyone knew how the government was doing many things then peoples lives would be at a serious risk of being killed. It is not the place for everyone to know everything that is going on.
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Dascryborg: I believe in the classification of information as most people do not need to know about certain things.
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DarrkPhoenix: And that attitude is why the government and military have lost pretty much all credibility when it comes to their judgment on whether something should be classified. Work on changing that attitude, towards thinking not that information should be disseminated to the public on a need to know basis, but rather that the public has a right to know and that there needs to be a very good reason to keep any information from being made available to the public. Until members of the government and members of the armed forces change their attitude organizations like Wikileaks will not only continue to enjoy a good measure of public support, but will remain essential for any society that wishes to have any pretense of being a free democracy.
Tell me all of your embarrassing secrets, do you like under aged girls? Do you like to kill small animals? Do you smell your own poop? Do you have a small penis? I don't know and its none of my business, this is the same reason why the Government has privacy, because everyone has the right to it...
Post edited December 05, 2010 by Dascryborg
Posted December 05, 2010
I don't really know where I stand - I've been thinking about the leaks for a while now, and while I do agree that we have a right to know.. I am also sensitive to the idea of how this can effect the world as a whole. As much as I disagree with many of the policies of my neighbors to the south - I don't know how I feel about the possibility of hostilities arising out of these leaked documents.

But then again - I just look over the aftermath, see that nothing really big has happened and then that's that.
Posted December 05, 2010
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Dascryborg: Tell me all of your embarrassing secrets, do you like under aged girls? Do you like to kill small animals? Do you smell your own poop? Do you have a small penis? I don't know and its none of my business, this is the same reason why the Government has privacy, because everyone has the right to it...
What I as a person do, is just my business.
What Government does is the business of everyone, since their shits fall on citizens' heads.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)WikiLeaks Cablegate(395 posts)(395 posts)
(395 posts)