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HGiles: You do realize that the US system has many more checks and balances than lots of other legal systems? Innocent until proven guilty is not actually always a part of the legal framework, even in other Western countries. And someone lying under oath is a problem in all legal systems. That's why perjury a serious crime. The issue that caused the false imprisonment isn't unique to the US.
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monkeydelarge: Just because I said something negative about MURICA doesn't mean this thread is saying MURICA is the worst country in the world. If I had to choose between dealing with the legal system here or dealing with the legal system in North Korea, I'd choose the legal system here, obviously... But our system is still garbage and needs to be fixed, at least to a point where innocent people don't have to spend time in prison.
Eh. We may just have a disagreement about terms then. I hear 'garbage' and think 'something that needs to be tossed out completely'. It sounds like you're more going for 'something with issues'. I agree with that, definitely.

I still don't see you suggesting any way to deal with evaluating the truthfulness of sworn testimony, though. That sounds like the key to this case - the kid lied in court about what was happening. That combined with the obvious neglect/abuse that was happening (the kid had been removed from the home once before) could have easily been enough to cause this kind of mistake.

Also - why is everyone assuming she's telling the truth now? The kid is obviously lying about something, but it's hard at this remove to say what it is. It's not unheard of for victims to want to be merciful to abusers, especially ones who were part of their family. I just don't see that we have any facts beyond 'Someone done screwed up.'
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qwixter: Ok, thanks for the clarification.
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HGiles: He still has yet to explain how volunteering to help with elections, police agencies and court systems or legal advocacy organizations (i.e. lobbying groups and non-profits like the EFF) doesn't improve the legal system. I wouldn't give his 'clarification' that much credit.
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chadjenofsky: 'Murica isn't crap.... but we sure do have a ton of stupid voters!
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HGiles: Yeah. And people who think they can vote once every 4 years and that's it. :/

Good government is hard. Just like everything else worthwhile.
Lets say, you are right and I am wrong. Let's say, you know how to improve the legal system and I'm just someone who isn't even trying. Then why haven't you helped improve the legal system? You have the knowledge, why didn't you do anything? LOL You like it when innocent people's lives are ruined?

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monkeydelarge: Probably lots of paper work combined with lazy people.

I never said creating a forum post is better than doing volunteer work... But a lot more useful than volunteer work when it comes to CHANGING THE LEGAL SYSTEM.
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qwixter: Ok, thanks for the clarification.
You thought I was bashing volunteer work? Of course not.
Post edited November 22, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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HGiles: He still has yet to explain how volunteering to help with elections, police agencies and court systems or legal advocacy organizations (i.e. lobbying groups and non-profits like the EFF) doesn't improve the legal system. I wouldn't give his 'clarification' that much credit.

Yeah. And people who think they can vote once every 4 years and that's it. :/

Good government is hard. Just like everything else worthwhile.
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monkeydelarge: Lets say, you are right and I am wrong. Let's say, you know how to improve the legal system and I'm just someone who isn't even trying. Then why haven't you helped improve the legal system? You have the knowledge, why didn't you do anything? LOL You like it when innocent people's lives are ruined?
Aaaannd we're back to the random personal attacks. Your last couple of posts were doing so well, dude!

Why do you think I'm not doing anything? :)

ETA: Especially when I mentioned upthread that I had done several of the things I listed as suggestions.
Post edited November 22, 2014 by HGiles
I don't know much about US legal system, but italian one...that is really garbage.
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monkeydelarge: Lets say, you are right and I am wrong. Let's say, you know how to improve the legal system and I'm just someone who isn't even trying. Then why haven't you helped improve the legal system? You have the knowledge, why didn't you do anything? LOL You like it when innocent people's lives are ruined?
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HGiles: Aaaannd we're back to the random personal attacks. Your last couple of posts were doing so well, dude!

Why do you think I'm not doing anything? :)
How can I seriously debate with you after you replied to me with these words.

"I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?"

So much hostility towards me on top of accusing me of being a part of the problem and accusing me of saying America is crap. That was a declaration of war(flame war) on the Imperial Monkey Empire.

And in this world, you can bitch, whine, email, write, vote all you want...no changes will be made unless you have POWER. And unfortunately, in real life, I have no power. This could change in the future but until then...all you suggested(other than the volunteer work) is just feeding an illusion. An illusion the people in power have created to trick Americans into thinking they have power... And all the volunteer work you suggested does help people but it won't change the system... And I didn't just create this thread to make a difference, I also created this thread to warn people and to start a debate.
Post edited November 22, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Sadly, this is not an isolated incident regarding false molestation accusations. The scary bit of this is people wrongly accused of being a sexual predator are ostracized almost immediately. If the child is going to testify, there is almost a certainty that anyone will be found guilty by a jury. I have known defense lawyers to advise taking a plea bargain, which only saves people from doing serious time. Still, they will have to live in this country as a registered sex offender with everyone believing they are guilty.

It is a flawed system, but what system isn't? What's also sad is it took 2 years after the girl recanted her testimony for him to be freed. Also, another truth is having money will help get you off the hook. The article mentions that the man had a public defender, so I can only assume that he did not have enough to afford a good lawyer. If he had, I'm willing to bet he would have been out in a tenth of that time.
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HGiles: For those who don't read links, a convicted pimp and burglar was accused of child molestation and convicted. Due to a 3 strikes law, he got life in prison. The accuser came forward and later confessed that the accusations were false. Her actions were driven by a terrible home life (drug-abusing mother, in and out of foster system, etc) and desperation not to be separated from her mother again.

My take: Child molestation is a really tough crime to prosecute. The victims are often so young, confused and hurt that they can't clearly explain what's going on. It's often not reported until physical evidence is long gone. It's terrible that Ithis man spent years in prison on the word of a lying, attention-seeking child. On the other hand, without knowing a lot more about the evidence and prosecution, it's hard to say what the appropriate fix would be.

ALso - while the USA legal system has some significant problems, it's still one of the better legal systems in the world (this might say more about the general terrible quality of current governments, but it's measurably true). Just because it has serious problems (like every other legal system I'm aware of) doesn't make it garbage. Just because some prosecutors relied on testimony under oath (inasmuch as kids can give that) doesn't make the whole system of law worthless.

I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?
Absolute fucking bullshit. Take a look at the case of Robert Leone who spent 2.5 years in gaol after getting the shit beaten out of him by cops for nothing multiple times. Take a look at clips like the Top 10 Worst Police Beatings caught on tape or thousands of other videos where it clearly depicts a crime being committed BY THOSE IN AUTHORITY and nothing is done about it. Victims get put in gaol ffs!

Robert Leone summary "Dashcam of BRUTAL beatings by cops after stopping the wrong man. Pennsylvania State Police pursued Robert for a MINOR traffic violation that he apparently DID NOT commit. While Robert was detained he was nearly killed by the police while they executed their form of street justice. He suffered through 11 hours of multiple beatings. He was tasered at least 10 times. He was also chemically maced. He spent more than 2 1/2 years in JAIL. Robert was charged with felony assault on a police officer because the officer broke his hand when he punched Robert in the head with his fist while he was being detained!"

The entire set up of human "civilisation" and the legal system in every country I researched is a complete joke. Yes this is an angry rant coming from someone who has been assaulted by police and has known and seen this first hand. The so-called safe guards that are in place to oversee police, the legal system, the military and governments are beyond a joke. If you have money, laws don't apply.

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monkeydelarge: How can I seriously debate with you after you replied to me with these words.

"I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?"

So much hostility towards me on top of accusing me of being a part of the problem and accusing me of saying America is crap. That was a declaration of war on the Imperial Monkey Empire.

And in this world, you can bitch, whine, email, write, vote all you want...no changes will be made unless you have POWER. And unfortunately, in real life, I have no power. This could change in the future but until then...all you suggested(other than the volunteer work) is just feeding an illusion. An illusion the people in power have created to trick Americans into thinking they have power... And all the volunteer work you suggested does help people but it won't change the system... And I didn't just create this thread to make a difference, I also created this thread to warn people and to start a debate.
^^ agreed wholeheartedly. People are so caught up in the daily treadmill that until it happens to them, they are apathetic. When one tries to do something about it, the illusion is broken that we actually have "power".

To answer the question of what have I done to fix it? After many years of trying, it become obvious to me that our way of existence is completely unsustainable for our species. We are heading towards another population cull. No idea how or when but it will happen, and most likely during my lifetime. I realised that I wasn't prepared to be able to live in an interdependent society with the skill set I had, so I learned and trained myself in the fundamentals of survival - how to source water, food, medicines, fire, shelter, make simple tools, weapons, self defense; to learn the patterns of nature so I can survive if need be. I'm not sure that there is much point to my survival, but I figured I'd learn it anyway and I have shared this knowledge with as many people who are willing to listen.
Post edited November 22, 2014 by Tarnicus
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HGiles: For those who don't read links, a convicted pimp and burglar was accused of child molestation and convicted. Due to a 3 strikes law, he got life in prison. The accuser came forward and later confessed that the accusations were false. Her actions were driven by a terrible home life (drug-abusing mother, in and out of foster system, etc) and desperation not to be separated from her mother again.

My take: Child molestation is a really tough crime to prosecute. The victims are often so young, confused and hurt that they can't clearly explain what's going on. It's often not reported until physical evidence is long gone. It's terrible that Ithis man spent years in prison on the word of a lying, attention-seeking child. On the other hand, without knowing a lot more about the evidence and prosecution, it's hard to say what the appropriate fix would be.

ALso - while the USA legal system has some significant problems, it's still one of the better legal systems in the world (this might say more about the general terrible quality of current governments, but it's measurably true). Just because it has serious problems (like every other legal system I'm aware of) doesn't make it garbage. Just because some prosecutors relied on testimony under oath (inasmuch as kids can give that) doesn't make the whole system of law worthless.

I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?
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Tarnicus: Absolute fucking bullshit. Take a look at the case of Robert Leone who spent 2.5 years in gaol after getting the shit beaten out of him by cops for nothing multiple times. Take a look at clips like the Top 10 Worst Police Beatings caught on tape or thousands of other videos where it clearly depicts a crime being committed BY THOSE IN AUTHORITY and nothing is done about it. Victims get put in gaol ffs!

Robert Leone summary "Dashcam of BRUTAL beatings by cops after stopping the wrong man. Pennsylvania State Police pursued Robert for a MINOR traffic violation that he apparently DID NOT commit. While Robert was detained he was nearly killed by the police while they executed their form of street justice. He suffered through 11 hours of multiple beatings. He was tasered at least 10 times. He was also chemically maced. He spent more than 2 1/2 years in JAIL. Robert was charged with felony assault on a police officer because the officer broke his hand when he punched Robert in the head with his fist while he was being detained!"

The entire set up of human "civilisation" and the legal system in every country I researched is a complete joke. Yes this is an angry rant coming from someone who has been assaulted by police and has known and seen this first hand. The so-called safe guards that are in place to oversee police, the legal system, the military and governments are beyond a joke. If you have money, laws don't apply.
I think he was comparing the USA's legal system to North Korea's. :P In that case, the glass is half full.
Post edited November 22, 2014 by monkeydelarge
I should also note that I don't "hate" police, regardless of my experiences with them. I've even jumped in to help a police officer who was in shock who was being assaulted by 2 people. I don't even have a caution to my name, regardless of how many ridiculous laws(I'm looking at you DRUGS) I've broken over the years. I hate the lack of transparency, lack of justice, cover-ups and the way in which laws apply differently to those with power, be they police, military, government, rich, etc.
low rated
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HGiles: For those who don't read links, a convicted pimp and burglar was accused of child molestation and convicted. Due to a 3 strikes law, he got life in prison. The accuser came forward and later confessed that the accusations were false. Her actions were driven by a terrible home life (drug-abusing mother, in and out of foster system, etc) and desperation not to be separated from her mother again.

My take: Child molestation is a really tough crime to prosecute. The victims are often so young, confused and hurt that they can't clearly explain what's going on. It's often not reported until physical evidence is long gone. It's terrible that Ithis man spent years in prison on the word of a lying, attention-seeking child. On the other hand, without knowing a lot more about the evidence and prosecution, it's hard to say what the appropriate fix would be.

ALso - while the USA legal system has some significant problems, it's still one of the better legal systems in the world (this might say more about the general terrible quality of current governments, but it's measurably true). Just because it has serious problems (like every other legal system I'm aware of) doesn't make it garbage. Just because some prosecutors relied on testimony under oath (inasmuch as kids can give that) doesn't make the whole system of law worthless.

I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?
avatar
Tarnicus: Absolute fucking bullshit. Take a look at the case of Robert Leone who spent 2.5 years in gaol after getting the shit beaten out of him by cops for nothing multiple times. Take a look at clips like the Top 10 Worst Police Beatings caught on tape or thousands of other videos where it clearly depicts a crime being committed BY THOSE IN AUTHORITY and nothing is done about it. Victims get put in gaol ffs!

Robert Leone summary "Dashcam of BRUTAL beatings by cops after stopping the wrong man. Pennsylvania State Police pursued Robert for a MINOR traffic violation that he apparently DID NOT commit. While Robert was detained he was nearly killed by the police while they executed their form of street justice. He suffered through 11 hours of multiple beatings. He was tasered at least 10 times. He was also chemically maced. He spent more than 2 1/2 years in JAIL. Robert was charged with felony assault on a police officer because the officer broke his hand when he punched Robert in the head with his fist while he was being detained!"

The entire set up of human "civilisation" and the legal system in every country I researched is a complete joke. Yes this is an angry rant coming from someone who has been assaulted by police and has known and seen this first hand. The so-called safe guards that are in place to oversee police, the legal system, the military and governments are beyond a joke. If you have money, laws don't apply.

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monkeydelarge: How can I seriously debate with you after you replied to me with these words.

"I'm sick of people posting random MURICA (or any country) IS CRAP threads without actually doing anything about it. If you have a problem with your country and don't try to fix it, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is particularly true in America, where we can in fact reliably vote our leaders out of power and cause legal changes.

TL;DR Put your money where your mouth is. What did you do this week to make your government better?"

So much hostility towards me on top of accusing me of being a part of the problem and accusing me of saying America is crap. That was a declaration of war on the Imperial Monkey Empire.

And in this world, you can bitch, whine, email, write, vote all you want...no changes will be made unless you have POWER. And unfortunately, in real life, I have no power. This could change in the future but until then...all you suggested(other than the volunteer work) is just feeding an illusion. An illusion the people in power have created to trick Americans into thinking they have power... And all the volunteer work you suggested does help people but it won't change the system... And I didn't just create this thread to make a difference, I also created this thread to warn people and to start a debate.
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Tarnicus: ^^ agreed wholeheartedly. People are so caught up in the daily treadmill that until it happens to them, they are apathetic. When one tries to do something about it, the illusion is broken that we actually have "power".

To answer the question of what have I done to fix it? After many years of trying, it become obvious to me that our way of existence is completely unsustainable for our species. We are heading towards another population cull. No idea how or when but it will happen, and most likely during my lifetime. I realised that I wasn't prepared to be able to live in an interdependent society with the skill set I had, so I learned and trained myself in the fundamentals of survival - how to source water, food, medicines, fire, shelter, make simple tools, weapons, self defense; to learn the patterns of nature so I can survive if need be. I'm not sure that there is much point to my survival, but I figured I'd learn it anyway and I have shared this knowledge with as many people who are willing to listen.
I believe you are right about our future. I think in the next 50 years, the world as we know it will fall apart and unfortunately, it's going to be some very dark times for everyone especially for those who are not prepared.
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Tarnicus: I should also note that I don't "hate" police, regardless of my experiences with them. I've even jumped in to help a police officer who was in shock who was being assaulted by 2 people. I don't even have a caution to my name, regardless of how many ridiculous laws(I'm looking at you DRUGS) I've broken over the years. I hate the lack of transparency, lack of justice, cover-ups and the way in which laws apply differently to those with power, be they police, military, government, rich, etc.
Of course not. That would be like hating all musicians because you hate one band or one genre of music.
We've had some "mistakes" in major cases here in the last decade. People being convicted for and serving long sentences who later appeared to be innocent. Sometimes after obvious questionable evidence.

19 years is only half of what Ricky Jackson served as an innocent man:
http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2014/11/a_free_man_ricky_jackson_to_le.html
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awalterj: Over here, we have the opposite problem with people getting away with murder - literally.
One well known example is the case of Vitaly Kaloyev from Russia who lost his family in a plane crash and then decided to stab to death Danish air traffic controller Peter Nielsen who was on duty during the fatal flight - in front of Nielsen's wife and kids.
Kaloyev only had to sit in prison for a laughable 3 years before he was let out and on his return to Russia they gave him a post as a minister and treated him like a hero - a convicted murderer.

That kind of BS is inexcusable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev
Well looking at what caused the crash I'd say that "on duty" is a bit of an understatement in Nielsen's culpability for what occurred. I know that if I lost my family and then had the experiences that Kaloyev had with the air traffic control company afterwards, I would have lost the plot too.
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monkeydelarge: Washington man spent 19 yrs in jail on fake child molestation charges
http://rt.com/usa/207823-man-jail-fake-child-molestation/

In this country, our legal system hasn't evolved past the Salem witch trials. Maybe Americans should be pissed off about this instead of being pissed off at having to pay taxes?
Just to get meaningful discussion and arguments, what exactly is it that irritates you the most in that case? The three strikes rule? Or that someone can be convicted based on someone else's testimony (word against word)?

I don't see this as an easy question. If the guy had been originally freed although a 11 year old child told he had been molesting her, I presume there would have been just as angry people commenting how the legal system is broken when (alleged) child molesters can go free.

The three strike rule... I don't know. I guess I understand the beautiful thought behind it (people who make crimes often are locked out for good, to protect the good citizens), but then maybe I am more accustomed to the "Norwegian prison" model where criminals are to be rehabilitated. But then you will get arguments how bad criminals are protected and get free upkeep from the society and tax money. So unfair! (either way)
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monkeydelarge: Washington man spent 19 yrs in jail on fake child molestation charges
http://rt.com/usa/207823-man-jail-fake-child-molestation/

In this country, our legal system hasn't evolved past the Salem witch trials. Maybe Americans should be pissed off about this instead of being pissed off at having to pay taxes?
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timppu: Just to get meaningful discussion and arguments, what exactly is it that irritates you the most in that case? The three strikes rule? Or that someone can be convicted based on someone else's testimony (word against word)?
Part me wonders, after the 17 years & on his third strike if he had become so institutionalized that it took another 2 years to try to get him some what prepared for life beyond the barbed wire?
Post edited November 22, 2014 by Rusty_Gunn