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nijuu: ...2) With those saying they will be DRM free but end up on Steam at some point - do those copies stay DRM free on steam or have Steam drm tacked onto them?
They could just offer a DRM free download from their own servers for those who select a DRM free version (and a Steam code for all others) without ever coming to GOG. Or maybe they would like to come here but GOG doesn't want them. Maybe they set the price so that it falls outside of the range GOG regards as feasible. It's really difficult to predict all that. However I think that some big KS projects were already inofficially confirmed for GOG (Wasteland, Doublefine, ...).
Post edited April 09, 2013 by Trilarion
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nijuu: 2) With those saying they will be DRM free but end up on Steam at some point - do those copies stay DRM free on steam or have Steam drm tacked onto them?
I can't really say anything for anything else, but Asylum promises to be DRM-free even through Steam.
Divinity: Original Sin funded: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larianstudios/divinity-original-sin/posts/449513
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Zolgar: Most creators and artists I know (which is a lot), will actually disagree with your notion that giving shit away or taking a loss is good for business.. because they've all tried it, and found out the hard way that.. If you give your product away, or you sell it for super cheap, that's what people expect of you.. The person who "loved your CD" when they got it for $1, probably won't be $10 interested in your new album. Generally speaking undervaluing your work in order to "get out there" is a newbie move that miiight help short term, but hurts a lot more long term.
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ET3D: I've seen Kickstarter projects make a lot more than what your father is asking on completely free products, such as web comics. Take The Cucumber Quest project for example, which made $62,953 for creating a book of a web comic that's available for all. I pledged for it. Only $5, mind you, but that's $5 I paid just because I enjoyed the comic (which I didn't know of before that project). Not to mention the Homestuck adventure game, which brought in around $2.5m.

Also what I've read about limited time promotions is that they work. Another anecdotal evidence from me: I bought Faeries Solitaire for cheap, then bought another copy to gift because I liked the game and it was on another sale (that was before the creator gave away ton of keys), then I pre-ordered Faerie Solitaire 2. If the game stayed at $7, I probably wouldn't have ended paying anything even if it was promoted.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "taking a loss". A digital copy doesn't cost money, so you're not losing money by giving it. You do for giving away physical copies (which means that giving away physical copies makes less sense).
I've seen Kickstarters asking for less, for something cooler, fail even when they offered things at lower prices. Kickstarter is a finicky beast, and the biggest factor involved.. is how much traffic you can get. Web comics or the like, get a lot of traffic because they have people who visit their website daily or several times a week.. this makes their Kickstarter campaigns far more likely to go viral.

Now, for limited promotions.. tell me, what do you know about the services like Groupon?
If you watch those, you'll notice most of them are reaching the point of just recycling the same few deals with an occasional something new. You know why this is? Most businesses have realized that when they do a Groupon or the like, they don't gain much, if any, repeat customers.
It's the same thing with giving away your work as an artist. When selling your art is how you intend to make money, giving it away makes people expect it free. Now since you've brought up web comics, which are free, I'll explain how those are a different beast: Web comics are free because the artist can sell advertisement space on their web comic, and once they get large enough they can also sell merchandise such as books, t-shirts.. whatever really. For them, their primary source of income is not directly selling their art.

As for the taking a loss bit, I wasn't talking 100% about only digital services. I know a lot of artists of many different types. I routinely talk to authors, musicians, sculptors, a machinist, artists (I still find it funny that people who draw pictures are just called artists), dancers, fire performers, costumers.. and the one thing most of them agree on, is that you never sell yourself too cheap, because that makes people expect you to always be that cheap.
Photon 3D Scanner - accessory to the 3D printer

http://igg.me/at/photon

Signal Culture - Media arts organization seeking startup funds to provide a residency, resources, and exhibition opportunities in New York

http://igg.me/at/SignalCulture

Titanic: Honor and Glory - adventure game

http://igg.me/at/THaG

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nijuu: Odd questions.
With many of the KS projects being or saying they will be DRM free - two things come to mind

1) Will some of them be coming to GOG ? (do the devs have to reach out to GOG or the reverse?) ?
Some games are guaranteed for GOG. Some may be coming. The process for acceptance to GOG depends and is not absolutely "strict" like Greenlight.

GOG reaches out to devs like Project Eternity:

http://kotaku.com/5944589/two-gaming-companies-find-true-love-on-twitter

Devs and fans reach out to GOG like the Cat Lady:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/the_cat_lady_gog_rejection/post98
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As for the free vs non-free:

For very large cities, artists" have lots of funding opportunities and understand that you do have to show off samples to get that new job offering, government grant, church donation drive, or coins in that hat when you busker or panhandle.

Examples of people who provide lots of free samples in the writing sphere include interactive fiction authors like Andrew Plotkin and traditional author and blogger Cory Doctorow. An infamous example opposite to these would be Harlan Ellison.
Post edited April 09, 2013 by tarohilt
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starcommand/star-command-kickstart-part-2-the-pc-mac-space-adv/posts

For those who were interested in Star Command they finally submitted the sucker to Itunes store.

And yes the KS was for the PC/Mac port....... which as a result of the massive delays on the iOS game is way way behind.

And one of the previews of the game (iOS alone) - not very encouraging ...:/

http://pockettactics.com/2013/04/08/these-are-the-voyages-star-command-hands-on-preview/
And shit is hiting the fan because the Shadowrun Returns devs decided only Steam version will have access to future DLCs and apparently full access to mods: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/449984
Post edited April 09, 2013 by gandalf.nho
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gandalf.nho: And shit is hiting the fan because the Shadowrun Returns devs decided only Steam version will have access to future DLCs and apparently full access to mods: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/449984
Makes me happy i cancelled my pledge early on.
They got 4 TIMES the goal amount. You really got to wonder if they thought they won the lotto and could do what they like. They same time is a factor. Bullshit. Most projects overrun anyway. The no DLC or mods for drm free version is really shite for those who backed them. Hope GOG doesn't pick this game up because of this (people will bitch about it being the incomplete version).
With the money they got from the KS they could easily implement all the stuff people wanted and even more. I really dont understand some devs....
Post edited April 09, 2013 by nijuu
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gandalf.nho: And shit is hiting the fan because the Shadowrun Returns devs decided only Steam version will have access to future DLCs and apparently full access to mods: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/449984
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nijuu: Makes me happy i cancelled my pledge early on.
They got 4 TIMES the goal amount. You really got to wonder if they thought they won the lotto and could do what they like. They same time is a factor. Bullshit. Most projects overrun anyway. The no DLC or mods for drm free version is really shite for those who backed them. Hope GOG doesn't pick this game up because of this (people will bitch about it being the incomplete version).
With the money they got from the KS they could easily implement all the stuff people wanted and even more. I really dont understand some devs....
I backed them (was my first KS project togeteher with Wasteland 2) adn I'm indiferent about Steam, but I also support the DRM-free crowd. With this HBS burned any possibility to try any new KS in the future...
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nijuu: Makes me happy i cancelled my pledge early on.
They got 4 TIMES the goal amount. You really got to wonder if they thought they won the lotto and could do what they like. They same time is a factor. Bullshit. Most projects overrun anyway. The no DLC or mods for drm free version is really shite for those who backed them. Hope GOG doesn't pick this game up because of this (people will bitch about it being the incomplete version).
With the money they got from the KS they could easily implement all the stuff people wanted and even more. I really dont understand some devs....
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gandalf.nho: I backed them (was my first KS project togeteher with Wasteland 2) adn I'm indiferent about Steam, but I also support the DRM-free crowd. With this HBS burned any possibility to try any new KS in the future...
Shadowrun was already sketchy when they also got money from shadowrun online.

FWIW Project Eternity and probably Torment are on track with DRM free and wide digital distribution on multiple services.

Simple solution: buy 50 copies of Project Eternity and Torment when they come out on GOG, along with their GOG expansion packs.
And in one fell swoop, my expectation, optimism and goodwill towards Shadowrun Returns and HBS is shot to hell. Have to see what they have to say come Friday, but I can't imagine it'll be more than half-assed damage control justifying their decision.

They've pretty much dug a grave for themselves and Kickstarter as far as I'm concerned.

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tarohilt: Shadowrun was already sketchy when they also got money from shadowrun online.
Well, they claimed same IP but different developers for an unrelated game.
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Gonchi: They've pretty much dug a grave for themselves and Kickstarter as far as I'm concerned.
While I'm with the no-DRM crowd (and have posted repeatedly in that Shadowrun update thread) I'd suggest that making judgments at this stage may be premature.

HBS are fulfilling what they promised with the option of a DRM-free download. However the decision to rely on Valve's software for mod creation and distribution does unfairly exclude non-Steam users - that point has been very strongly made and HBS have said they will post an update/FAQ on Friday.

It would therefore seem best to wait for that before reaching any final conclusion.

For the record, I've only come across one KS project that tried to renege on their no-DRM committment and they did relent (under some pressure).
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tarohilt: Shadowrun was already sketchy when they also got money from shadowrun online.
Shadowrun Returns and Shadowrun Online are made by two different companies.

As for the decision to go with Steam, I understand the technical reasons for the decision, but I can see how this rubs many backers the wrong way.

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Zolgar: As for the taking a loss bit, I wasn't talking 100% about only digital services. I know a lot of artists of many different types. I routinely talk to authors, musicians, sculptors, a machinist, artists (I still find it funny that people who draw pictures are just called artists), dancers, fire performers, costumers.. and the one thing most of them agree on, is that you never sell yourself too cheap, because that makes people expect you to always be that cheap.
For physical you have a per-unit cost which needs to be offset, be that for materials or for time invested. For digital it's very different. If you lower your price 10-fold and as a result 20 times the people buy it, you've got a net gain.

Here's a quote from this article from Smashwords:

"One surprise, however, was that we found $2.99 books, on average, netted the authors more earnings (profit per unit, multiplied by units sold) than books priced at $6.99 and above. When we look at the $2.99 price point compared to $9.99, $2.99 earns the author slightly more, yet gains the author about four times as many readers. $2.99 ebooks earned the authors six times as many readers than books priced over $10.|
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Gonchi: They've pretty much dug a grave for themselves and Kickstarter as far as I'm concerned.
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AstralWanderer: While I'm with the no-DRM crowd (and have posted repeatedly in that Shadowrun update thread) I'd suggest that making judgments at this stage may be premature.
Whether they carefully word their justification for shafting part of their backers or find a way to backpeddle their way out of this shitstorm they've created smelling of roses, I still want nothing to do with them. They're not getting another cent from me.

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AstralWanderer: HBS are fulfilling what they promised with the option of a DRM-free download
No they're not.
Would they have not guessed the severe backlash behind this or did they overestimate how popular Steam actually is?