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General discussion (archive)What is, and isn't, DRM?(157 posts)(157 posts)
(157 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 19, 2014
Since we are discussing servers, how is the BattleNet Diablo 2 community right now? I'm really bored and might log on later today.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Grargar: (Do you even need a key to play on any unofficial servers?)
You need a unique key even for LAN play.
Posted May 19, 2014
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blotunga: You need a unique key even for LAN play.
Interesting.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: I disagree here. GOG games are mostly DRM-free, but not completely. We still have games with instruction manual look-ups and some games where you need to ask for a serial number to be 100% functional (Neverwinter Nights comes to mind).

Although GOG provides everything to satisfy the DRM requirements, they are still necessary. If GOG went down today and you lost your NWN s/n, you could not play multiplayer. Or if GOG went down and you lost your manual, you could not play a few games with the instruction manual check.

Not super-strong DRM (and even admittedly NWN's DRM is formed from the basics of how multiplayer data is relayed, so it's purpose wasn't just DRM, it had a dual-purpose). But still a little sprinkling of DRM.
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Grargar: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't looking up on manuals unnecessary? You can just type anything you want and the game will still proceed (Master of Orion asked for the names of ships, but no matter what you answer in the GOG version, it still gets it right.). And Neverwinter Nights is a bad example, because the servers are shutting down soon. (Do you even need a key to play on any unofficial servers?)
I haven't played a game that needs the pass keys, but I thought I saw something that needed them. I may be wrong on this one.

NWN can still be played multiplayer. You just can't search for servers in an automated way. If you have a GOG copy, you can't install it on 5 PCs in your house and get one to be a DM and the other 4 to be players. The game communicates it network traffic using your unique encrypted CD key. So if will not let a player in a game if that game already has that CD key in use.

GOG can't change that. It's built into how the game works at its core. But it certainly didn't need to be that way. The DRM was hard-coded into the system and there's just no good way to get it out.
Posted May 19, 2014
All I know is it killed Diablo for me... ****runs off crying****
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: I haven't played a game that needs the pass keys, but I thought I saw something that needed them. I may be wrong on this one.

NWN can still be played multiplayer. You just can't search for servers in an automated way. If you have a GOG copy, you can't install it on 5 PCs in your house and get one to be a DM and the other 4 to be players. The game communicates it network traffic using your unique encrypted CD key. So if will not let a player in a game if that game already has that CD key in use.

GOG can't change that. It's built into how the game works at its core. But it certainly didn't need to be that way. The DRM was hard-coded into the system and there's just no good way to get it out.
I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Potzato: For instance on gog, there is a DRM on getting the installer of the game you bought (you want the installer for the game, you have to log on gog which has nothing to do with installing the game).
Once the game is installed, you play it on your computer without anything else = DRM free game.

Edit : To be clear, I even consider putting ads in a free game some kind of DRM. And I am not against all forms of DRM (under my wide definition)
I'm aware that you mean to say the games on GOG are DRM-free after download, but I don't see much use in a definition that applies DRM to the act of purchasing. By that definition the process of buying a paperback on Amazon involves DRM, and maybe even the process of buying a board game at a board game fair (you had to pay an entry fee, which has nothing to do with playing the game). As you say, the act of purchasing has nothing to do with the product, and therefor it should be viewed independently of the product's properties.

On the other hand, I'd also change your definiton:
Once the game is installed, you play it on your computer without anything else = DRM free game.
to: Once the game is downloaded (or, in the case of retail, bought), you can install and play it on your computer without anything else = DRM free game.

Because the process of installing a game can very well involve DRM and prevent you from playing it in the future, even if system compatibility is still given (see one-time online activation or client dependency for installation).
Post edited May 19, 2014 by Leroux
Posted May 19, 2014
DRM... Something artificially restricting you in the usage of your media (not only games). A disc check or a serial key (even without online authentification or activation limits) is already borderline. I understood that you had to have the disc in your CD-drive when cutscenes were played from the disc. But those times are long-forgotten. We have plenty of space on our hard drives now.
Posted May 19, 2014
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blotunga: Online stores basically eradicated the publisher's greatest fear: second hand sales. 15 years ago you could buy a game, play it until you're done and then sell it for a third of the original price for example. Today you can't do that anymore.
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Leroux: On the other hand it has been replaced by extreme sales and massive Steam/Origin/Uplay key selling and trading (e.g. people buying huge amounts of keys for very low prices in bundles, sales or cheaper markets and reselling them for prices only slightly higher than the discount prices, outside sales, all year).
Yes, definitely these days a consumer can get a lot more games for the money, even without selling used games. You can even get lots of games for free, even AAA games, something that you couldn't do (legally) before digital games. Plus you have access to a huge catalogue of games spanning decades, something which wasn't available with physical games. So as I see it it's a win-win situation: publishers can sell games longer and continue to earn money from them, and gamers have access to a huge number of games at very reasonable (and often ridiculously low) prices.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: I understand you now. So you're not arguing that they're not managing their digital rights with copy protection, you're saying that it shouldn't be categorized as under the umbrella of what "Digital Rights Management" should be. So what is your definition or what should be under the umbrella? Items that could potentially interfere with the the game if the DRM fails?
Like I said originally, DRM to me is the company controlling access after the sale. I don't see a disc-check as that, personally. You have access at your command, they just try to prevent copying, hence copy protection.

It's not something I get super riled up about though. Just my definition. The only time I would insist someone is wrong is when they classify things like totally optional cloud saves as DRM, which is pretty wacky.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: Although GOG provides everything to satisfy the DRM requirements, they are still necessary. If GOG went down today and you lost your NWN s/n, you could not play multiplayer. Or if GOG went down and you lost your manual, you could not play a few games with the instruction manual check.
This is NOT DRM. You can download and save your GOG-purchased products (including making a note of your keys and whatnot) and keep them indefinitely. GOG disappearing would not, in any way, hamper your ability to continue to use that which you purchased, as long as you performed due diligence when you bought it of downloading it and keeping a backup.

Which is quite unlike GOG's DRM-ladened competition that, even with the business still up and alive, regularly limits their paying customer's ability to play their "rented" software. If they were to go away (which has happened with a handful of sources, including, as an example, Yahoo!'s music store) you truly WOULD lose everything.
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: Although GOG provides everything to satisfy the DRM requirements, they are still necessary. If GOG went down today and you lost your NWN s/n, you could not play multiplayer. Or if GOG went down and you lost your manual, you could not play a few games with the instruction manual check.
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mqstout: This is NOT DRM. You can download and save your GOG-purchased products (including making a note of your keys and whatnot) and keep them indefinitely. GOG disappearing would not, in any way, hamper your ability to continue to use that which you purchased, as long as you performed due diligence when you bought it of downloading it and keeping a backup.

Which is quite unlike GOG's DRM-ladened competition that, even with the business still up and alive, regularly limits their paying customer's ability to play their "rented" software. If they were to go away (which has happened with a handful of sources, including, as an example, Yahoo!'s music store) you truly WOULD lose everything.
Most products on GOG are DRM-free, but some are not. Several games with multiplayer functionality need valid CD keys which is a form of copy protection which in turn is a way of ENFORCING the stipulation in the software license that says you can not distribute copies of the game. I don't know if any games in the catalogue require you to occasionally quote the printed manual (which is a funny and horribly outdated form of copy protection/DRM), but I know for a fact that there are games that still check for valid and unique CD keys for multiplayer functionality.
Posted May 19, 2014
So just to clarify:

GoG isn't DRM but:

Itunes is DRM
Steam is DRM
Any MMORPG is DRM
Any multiplayer only game is DRM (Counterstrike, Battlefield)
Streaming devices where you can buy games, like the Roku or new Fire TV is DRM
Heck, even Windows OS's are DRM (you cannot freely transfer keys from computer to computer and must authenticate with Microsoft's servers to receive updates).
Posted May 19, 2014
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Sufyan: Most products on GOG are DRM-free, but some are not. Several games with multiplayer functionality need valid CD keys which is a form of copy protection which in turn is a way of ENFORCING the stipulation in the software license that says you can not distribute copies of the game. I don't know if any games in the catalogue require you to occasionally quote the printed manual (which is a funny and horribly outdated form of copy protection/DRM), but I know for a fact that there are games that still check for valid and unique CD keys for multiplayer functionality.
Still not DRM. Nothing can be done to revoke your ability to play the game..
Post edited May 19, 2014 by mqstout
Posted May 19, 2014
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Tallima: Although GOG provides everything to satisfy the DRM requirements, they are still necessary. If GOG went down today and you lost your NWN s/n, you could not play multiplayer. Or if GOG went down and you lost your manual, you could not play a few games with the instruction manual check.
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mqstout: This is NOT DRM. You can download and save your GOG-purchased products (including making a note of your keys and whatnot) and keep them indefinitely. GOG disappearing would not, in any way, hamper your ability to continue to use that which you purchased, as long as you performed due diligence when you bought it of downloading it and keeping a backup.

Which is quite unlike GOG's DRM-ladened competition that, even with the business still up and alive, regularly limits their paying customer's ability to play their "rented" software. If they were to go away (which has happened with a handful of sources, including, as an example, Yahoo!'s music store) you truly WOULD lose everything.
If they aren't managing their digital rights, then what are they doing?
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Sufyan: Most products on GOG are DRM-free, but some are not. Several games with multiplayer functionality need valid CD keys which is a form of copy protection which in turn is a way of ENFORCING the stipulation in the software license that says you can not distribute copies of the game. I don't know if any games in the catalogue require you to occasionally quote the printed manual (which is a funny and horribly outdated form of copy protection/DRM), but I know for a fact that there are games that still check for valid and unique CD keys for multiplayer functionality.
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mqstout: Still not DRM. Nothing can be done to revoke your ability to play the game..
It most certainly will stop us. If I send you my copy of NWN and you and I try to play together, it will stop it. The game will not allow us to play together.
Post edited May 19, 2014 by Tallima
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)What is, and isn't, DRM?(157 posts)(157 posts)
(157 posts)