Posted December 15, 2009
ZamFear
Never Knows Best
ZamFear Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
akwater
Who am I?
akwater Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States
Aliasalpha
Once Proud
Aliasalpha Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2008
From Australia
ceemdee
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
akwater: My statement was to point out the fact that ONE person is never going to be able to do the SAME exact things that another person is able to do.
And their point was that just because someone can't do something now doesn't mean they should never be able to. Sure a blind person most likely isn't going to be able to play a video game. At least not like they are set up now. But why couldn't some games at least have settings or be adapted to allow a blind person to play?
Not saying that it's something that companies should be forced to do, but it would be interesting if a few tried.
einexile
New User
einexile Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
Wraith: I, personally, think that blind people need to accept that there are certain things they cannot do.
But none of us has to accept that this must render them unable to participate, or otherwise separate them from their culture. There is certainly a way to do it. What's lacking is enthusiasm, and that no doubt stems in part from the commonly accepted notion that the problem can never be addressed.
Aliasalpha: So what, you're playing guitar hero metallica and rocking out to... say One and you hear a tonal beep before the button you have to press which overrides the music? Wouldn't that kind of defeat the point?
Sound games don't have to be visual. In Parappa the Rapper, for instance, you couldn't really excel solely by following the visual cues. You also had to respond to the actual song. I very much doubt a deaf person ever got U Rappin' Cool in that game. And think of all the games you've played where the sound cues aren't accurate. Most explosion sounds in games wouldn't scare someone walking down the street. That tearing sound you hear when some rogue sneaks up on you would normally send you running for help on the assumption you would bleed to death even after defeating him. A rhythm game *can* be just about what you're hearing in the song. You also seem to be forgetting about controller vibration and other force feedback.
DarrkPhoenix: However, it's important to realize that as the blind constitute only a small portion of the videogame market this niche market is probably going to be about the extent of what is economically sensible for companies to do.
It doesn't have to be a niche market. The trick is to make it something sighted players can also enjoy. The best way to do this is probably by adding blind gameplay into cooperative multiplayer as a class or other specialized role. For example, if your character in an MMO could be bound to another player like an NPC henchman, I see no reason the role of a healer couldn't be undertaken without the benefit of visuals. The information can be delivered to the player, and the player can respond to it. It's all a matter of how, and then balancing it for reasonable challenge and experimenting with new ways to integrate someone with a disability into the culture of a game. Of course the best way would probably be to start from scratch.
chaotix: Now that wasn't so hard was it? Blizzard added options for color blind players to show item rarity in text instead of color. Little things can go a long way.
I suspect it will be Blizzard that finally makes the big step which will welcome sight-impaired people en masse into gaming culture. Lord knows they'll take it from some smaller developer who will never get the credit they deserve, but the end result will still be a good thing.
Post edited December 15, 2009 by einexile
akwater
Who am I?
akwater Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
"And their point was that just because someone can't do something now doesn't mean they should never be able to. "
They are playing,
http://www.brandoncole.net/demos.htm
http://www.bscgames.com/
http://news.cnet.com/2110-1040-965515.html
Propose a fix. Offer up a sensible option, Bliz did something to help color blind people. I am guessing because people asked? Those people didn't change settings of the games they played.
Oh and just to argue about the whole thing "of just because I cant do something now doesn't mean I should never be able to." Well currently I can not launch an all out nuclear war but.................. I should be able to? Currently I am not allowed to kill people and get away with it....... But I shouldn't be denied the chance just because. Currently my blind Special Forces friend is not allowed to carry a weapon that is loaded on a mission but, one day he should be able to...............
For a person to make a change they need input. If I ask my boss to cater to my needs I at least need to tell her what I need right? Unless she is psychic, which perhaps she is. But rather then ask for her to read my mind I find it easier to tell her what I need done, offer the solution, costs, time, power, realistic expectations what the return might be.
There are games for the blind, there are games for people with CF, there are games for teens, adults, gangsters, musicians, dog lovers, cat lovers and anything else you can think of.
If I dont like a game, or have an idea for something I'd like to see done I can send email, mail, fax, call, and tell them WHY I did or did not like the game. But bitching we need more games, regardless of the group does nothing to actually solve their complaint right?
They are playing,
http://www.brandoncole.net/demos.htm
http://www.bscgames.com/
http://news.cnet.com/2110-1040-965515.html
Propose a fix. Offer up a sensible option, Bliz did something to help color blind people. I am guessing because people asked? Those people didn't change settings of the games they played.
Oh and just to argue about the whole thing "of just because I cant do something now doesn't mean I should never be able to." Well currently I can not launch an all out nuclear war but.................. I should be able to? Currently I am not allowed to kill people and get away with it....... But I shouldn't be denied the chance just because. Currently my blind Special Forces friend is not allowed to carry a weapon that is loaded on a mission but, one day he should be able to...............
For a person to make a change they need input. If I ask my boss to cater to my needs I at least need to tell her what I need right? Unless she is psychic, which perhaps she is. But rather then ask for her to read my mind I find it easier to tell her what I need done, offer the solution, costs, time, power, realistic expectations what the return might be.
There are games for the blind, there are games for people with CF, there are games for teens, adults, gangsters, musicians, dog lovers, cat lovers and anything else you can think of.
If I dont like a game, or have an idea for something I'd like to see done I can send email, mail, fax, call, and tell them WHY I did or did not like the game. But bitching we need more games, regardless of the group does nothing to actually solve their complaint right?
Gundato
The Peepe
Gundato Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
Wraith: I, personally, think that blind people need to accept that there are certain things they cannot do.
einexile: But none of us has to accept that this must render them unable to participate, or otherwise separate them from their culture. There is certainly a way to do it. What's lacking is enthusiasm, and that no doubt stems in part from the commonly accepted notion that the problem can never be addressed. Aliasalpha: So what, you're playing guitar hero metallica and rocking out to... say One and you hear a tonal beep before the button you have to press which overrides the music? Wouldn't that kind of defeat the point?
Sound games don't have to be visual. In Parappa the Rapper, for instance, you couldn't really excel solely by following the visual cues. You also had to respond to the actual song. I very much doubt a deaf person ever got U Rappin' Cool in that game. And think of all the games you've played where the sound cues aren't accurate. Most explosion sounds in games wouldn't scare someone walking down the street. That tearing sound you hear when some rogue sneaks up on you would normally send you running for help on the assumption you would bleed to death even after defeating him. A rhythm game *can* be just about what you're hearing in the song. You also seem to be forgetting about controller vibration and other force feedback.
DarrkPhoenix: However, it's important to realize that as the blind constitute only a small portion of the videogame market this niche market is probably going to be about the extent of what is economically sensible for companies to do.
It doesn't have to be a niche market. The trick is to make it something sighted players can also enjoy. The best way to do this is probably by adding blind gameplay into cooperative multiplayer as a class or other specialized role. For example, if your character in an MMO could be bound to another player like an NPC henchman, I see no reason the role of a healer couldn't be undertaken without the benefit of visuals. The information can be delivered to the player, and the player can respond to it. It's all a matter of how, and then balancing it for reasonable challenge and experimenting with new ways to integrate someone with a disability into the culture of a game. Of course the best way would probably be to start from scratch.
chaotix: Now that wasn't so hard was it? Blizzard added options for color blind players to show item rarity in text instead of color. Little things can go a long way.
I suspect it will be Blizzard that finally makes the big step which will welcome sight-impaired people en masse into gaming culture. Lord knows they'll take it from some smaller developer who will never get the credit they deserve, but the end result will still be a good thing.
I'll admit, I don't play too many MMOs. But I think it might help if the healer can, I don't know, see who they are healing AND see the health bar of those people.
Your suggestion is, if anything, insanely boring (and possibly offensive). Your solution is that they don't move around (just auto-follow) and would essentially be a glorified voice-comm macro ("Heal player 4!").
It is fun to argue for rights and the like, and I am sure there are a few ways. But please think things through.
DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
DarrkPhoenix Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
einexile: It doesn't have to be a niche market. The trick is to make it something sighted players can also enjoy. The best way to do this is probably by adding blind gameplay into cooperative multiplayer as a class or other specialized role. For example, if your character in an MMO could be bound to another player like an NPC henchman, I see no reason the role of a healer couldn't be undertaken without the benefit of visuals. The information can be delivered to the player, and the player can respond to it. It's all a matter of how, and then balancing it for reasonable challenge and experimenting with new ways to integrate someone with a disability into the culture of a game.
But would the increased revenue brought in by blind people playing the game offset the cost of implementing this feature? Unless it does it simply isn't sensible for a company to implement such a feature in their games.
akwater
Who am I?
akwater Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
Brings new meaning to the term heal bot wouldn't it?
Yep, cost would be the determining factor.... Also, why not instead of us saying ideas we have perhaps ask a visually impaired person what they would like to see changed?
Like I said before until people express their desires all a company can do is take a stab at it and maybe appease some people.....
Yep, cost would be the determining factor.... Also, why not instead of us saying ideas we have perhaps ask a visually impaired person what they would like to see changed?
Like I said before until people express their desires all a company can do is take a stab at it and maybe appease some people.....
einexile
New User
einexile Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
Gundato: I'll admit, I don't play too many MMOs. But I think it might help if the healer can, I don't know, see who they are healing AND see the health bar of those people.
You are talking about games as they are currently set up. By this logic a deaf person would not be able to heal because they can't hear how hard other players are hit, how much pain they are in, or what types of wounds have been inflicted on them.
Of course a blind person would benefit from being able to see other players and what's happening to them. That's the whole reason this thread exists. The question is can games be set up for that not always to matter so much? Of course they can, and it doesn't boil down to somebody barking orders. The gameplay would have to be based around sound and touch.
For example, if you used a gamepad, teammates could be represented by tones or bound to specific buttons depending on how aggravating the player finds cycling through these tones, with conditions represented by more textured sounds, chords, maybe even drumbeats. Gamepad vibration isn't going to be quite as useful, but that's because the gamepad is designed mainly to rumble when the screen shakes. A more complex controller could provide better information, but in the meantime it can still indicate something. At a minimum it can alert you to conditions affecting the selected teammate, or to which teammate not selected requires your attention. (I'm sure that's not thrilling to some, but the reason so many multiplayer games get away with looking like ass is many of us enjoy them mainly for the interaction with other people.)
This can all happen very quickly, but there's no reason such encounters can't be paced with the limitations of a disabled player in mind. Other factors can keep the tension up for everyone else, and MMOs are already designed so that players desiring different levels of excitement or challenge can be part of the same event.
Gundato: Your suggestion is, if anything, insanely boring (and possibly offensive). Your solution is that they don't move around (just auto-follow) and would essentially be a glorified voice-comm macro ("Heal player 4!").
By comparison to what we're talking about, people's sensibilities aren't important. They are not relevant to a serious discussion about disabilities and multiplayer gaming. If carrying my blind friend around in a backpack causes you some sort of bugaboo, and you find yourself lamenting their lost dignity, that will be just fine.
Yes, of course it's offensive. But who's going to notice? Not anyone who enjoys it, and not anyone who isn't interested in the game. Certainly it will make someone - somewhere - uncomfortable who isn't in the position of being excluded from an activity because of a disability. Heaven forbid our conscience be plagued by subtext while observing somebody else enjoying themselves.
One of the joys of multiplayer gaming is having another person drive you around while you operate from a stationary position. If having to do this all the time makes somebody sad, that's easily countered. The first thing that comes to mind is permitting the riding player to switch between drivers at will. The reason I mentioned the healer specifically is that the role is often accused of not being mobile, and putting the player physically outside the action. I imagine there are dozens of other solutions I haven't thought of, but you're probably not going to solve the mobility problem without some kind of a tingling body suit. It is simply going to be much more difficult to give a blind person a sense of his surroundings in a 2D medium than it will be to give him a sense of more abstract factors like hit points, buffs management, aggro, and that sort of thing.
DarrkPhoenix: But would the increased revenue brought in by blind people playing the game offset the cost of implementing this feature? Unless it does it simply isn't sensible for a company to implement such a feature in their games.
Until stockholders are in a position to shut down individual features of specific games before they can be implemented, developers will continue to occasionally put things in their games simply because they want to. Case in point, Anarchy Online *yesterday* implemented a mail system. Was that really necessary? Of course not. Is the game making any money at all? Shadowbane wasn't. Not for the year or so after it lost its last advertiser. As near as anyone can tell, it just kept going because somebody up there liked it. Or sure, there's a customer goodwill element to all this, and you can fairly look at it as a way to keep customers happy and then somewhere down the road lies a bit of money, but that's not so different from what we're discussing here.
chaotix.432
Plate of shrimp
chaotix.432 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2008
From Australia
Posted December 15, 2009
akwater: Like I said before until people express their desires all a company can do is take a stab at it and maybe appease some people.....
" "Gamers like Cole have reached out to publishers with suggestions on making their titles more accessible, but they frequently find their blind-friendly requests ignored.
"I wrote THQ a letter once suggesting things they could add to their WWE Smackdown games to make them more accessible to the blind," Cole told GameSpot, "I got a letter back thanking me for my appreciation of their cutting-edge graphics." "
http://au.gamespot.com/news/6215457.html
It does have an example of a game being changed based on suggestions though, replacing some graphics with text so screen reader programs can interpret it.
Post edited December 15, 2009 by chaotix
Gundato
The Peepe
Gundato Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted December 15, 2009
Gundato: I'll admit, I don't play too many MMOs. But I think it might help if the healer can, I don't know, see who they are healing AND see the health bar of those people.
einexile: You are talking about games as they are currently set up. By this logic a deaf person would not be able to heal because they can't hear how hard other players are hit, how much pain they are in, or what types of wounds have been inflicted on them. Of course a blind person would benefit from being able to see other players and what's happening to them. That's the whole reason this thread exists. The question is can games be set up for that not always to matter so much? Of course they can, and it doesn't boil down to somebody barking orders. The gameplay would have to be based around sound and touch.
For example, if you used a gamepad, teammates could be represented by tones or bound to specific buttons depending on how aggravating the player finds cycling through these tones, with conditions represented by more textured sounds, chords, maybe even drumbeats. Gamepad vibration isn't going to be quite as useful, but that's because the gamepad is designed mainly to rumble when the screen shakes. A more complex controller could provide better information, but in the meantime it can still indicate something. At a minimum it can alert you to conditions affecting the selected teammate, or to which teammate not selected requires your attention. (I'm sure that's not thrilling to some, but the reason so many multiplayer games get away with looking like ass is many of us enjoy them mainly for the interaction with other people.)
This can all happen very quickly, but there's no reason such encounters can't be paced with the limitations of a disabled player in mind. Other factors can keep the tension up for everyone else, and MMOs are already designed so that players desiring different levels of excitement or challenge can be part of the same event.
Gundato: Your suggestion is, if anything, insanely boring (and possibly offensive). Your solution is that they don't move around (just auto-follow) and would essentially be a glorified voice-comm macro ("Heal player 4!").
By comparison to what we're talking about, people's sensibilities aren't important. They are not relevant to a serious discussion about disabilities and multiplayer gaming. If carrying my blind friend around in a backpack causes you some sort of bugaboo, and you find yourself lamenting their lost dignity, that will be just fine.
Yes, of course it's offensive. But who's going to notice? Not anyone who enjoys it, and not anyone who isn't interested in the game. Certainly it will make someone - somewhere - uncomfortable who isn't in the position of being excluded from an activity because of a disability. Heaven forbid our conscience be plagued by subtext while observing somebody else enjoying themselves.
One of the joys of multiplayer gaming is having another person drive you around while you operate from a stationary position. If having to do this all the time makes somebody sad, that's easily countered. The first thing that comes to mind is permitting the riding player to switch between drivers at will. The reason I mentioned the healer specifically is that the role is often accused of not being mobile, and putting the player physically outside the action. I imagine there are dozens of other solutions I haven't thought of, but you're probably not going to solve the mobility problem without some kind of a tingling body suit. It is simply going to be much more difficult to give a blind person a sense of his surroundings in a 2D medium than it will be to give him a sense of more abstract factors like hit points, buffs management, aggro, and that sort of thing.
DarrkPhoenix: But would the increased revenue brought in by blind people playing the game offset the cost of implementing this feature? Unless it does it simply isn't sensible for a company to implement such a feature in their games.
Until stockholders are in a position to shut down individual features of specific games before they can be implemented, developers will continue to occasionally put things in their games simply because they want to. Case in point, Anarchy Online *yesterday* implemented a mail system. Was that really necessary? Of course not. Is the game making any money at all? Shadowbane wasn't. Not for the year or so after it lost its last advertiser. As near as anyone can tell, it just kept going because somebody up there liked it. Or sure, there's a customer goodwill element to all this, and you can fairly look at it as a way to keep customers happy and then somewhere down the road lies a bit of money, but that's not so different from what we're discussing here.
So basically, your solution is "they don't know any better, so they won't care"?
Really?
Really?
Really?
anjohl
Disconnected
anjohl Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2009
From Canada
Posted December 15, 2009
If you can give me an example of a music video game (Which was all Wonder was talking about), that would work for a blind person, that would be fun and economically viable, I will eat my shoes.
it can't be done. VIDEO games are inherently VISUAL...the only way to do it would be with some sort of touch screen/braille combination, which would likely remove most of the fun.
I wish it could be done, but I can't fathom a way to do it.
Punch the air (maybe advancing a few steps) until you hear a hit sound. Then just pop up a crapload of combos that involve juggling.
Obviously this goes out the window for any fighting games with 3d arenas (since you can flank) and hinges upon combos allowing for juggling.
You can definitely play the first MK with yoru eyes closed, I used to do it!
You miss the point, in a very PC manner. Certain mediums require certain senses, as they are the linchpin of the entire perceptic experience. For example, playing basketball with no hands is just not possible. Saying that basketball should be made MORE accessible to people without hands SOUNDS sensitive and compassionate to some, but it's actually the very opposite.
It's unrealistic and irresponsible to state that X should be done, when X is impossible due to Y. If basketball CANNOT be played by someone who does not have hands, then you leave it at that. Perhaps in the future, cybernetics technology will allow for handless basketball, or cybernetics will allow for blind people to "see" with other senses such as hearing or touch.
But until then, it's off the table, bottom line.
it can't be done. VIDEO games are inherently VISUAL...the only way to do it would be with some sort of touch screen/braille combination, which would likely remove most of the fun.
I wish it could be done, but I can't fathom a way to do it.
ZamFear: A while back, some news-type show did a segment on blind people who had learned how to echolocate (!).
One of the guys they interviewed likes playing Mortal Kombat. By sound.
Not what one would normally consider "accessible."
Gundato: To be fair, fighting games are actually VERY accessible. If you actually watch one of the many blind people who play those, they essentially do something along the lines of the following One of the guys they interviewed likes playing Mortal Kombat. By sound.
Not what one would normally consider "accessible."
Punch the air (maybe advancing a few steps) until you hear a hit sound. Then just pop up a crapload of combos that involve juggling.
Obviously this goes out the window for any fighting games with 3d arenas (since you can flank) and hinges upon combos allowing for juggling.
You can definitely play the first MK with yoru eyes closed, I used to do it!
Aliasalpha: What, wheelchair football isn't an option? Sure you might not be able to do those cool sliding tackle things but you know for a fact if a guy goes down and can't get up that he actually MEANS it and isn't wasting time trying to cheat out a penalty
You miss the point, in a very PC manner. Certain mediums require certain senses, as they are the linchpin of the entire perceptic experience. For example, playing basketball with no hands is just not possible. Saying that basketball should be made MORE accessible to people without hands SOUNDS sensitive and compassionate to some, but it's actually the very opposite.
It's unrealistic and irresponsible to state that X should be done, when X is impossible due to Y. If basketball CANNOT be played by someone who does not have hands, then you leave it at that. Perhaps in the future, cybernetics technology will allow for handless basketball, or cybernetics will allow for blind people to "see" with other senses such as hearing or touch.
But until then, it's off the table, bottom line.
Post edited December 15, 2009 by anjohl
Aliasalpha
Once Proud
Aliasalpha Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2008
From Australia
Posted December 15, 2009
But I saw something on the net a few years back of a few teams of wheelchair bound people playing soccer so its clear that it can be done. It wasn't exactly the same sport but it worked for them, it looked fun and it didn't affect how other people played the game.
Now if they pushed in a rule for the major soccer leagues that made them support wheelchair bound players, that would affect how the others played and be going too far but if they're not affecting anyone else, I say go nuts & have all the fun you can.
Doesn't alter the fact that major publishers releasing a blind-friendly game has less of a probability than kylie minogue turning up on my doorstep with nothing on but lingerie and a cheeky smile
Now if they pushed in a rule for the major soccer leagues that made them support wheelchair bound players, that would affect how the others played and be going too far but if they're not affecting anyone else, I say go nuts & have all the fun you can.
Doesn't alter the fact that major publishers releasing a blind-friendly game has less of a probability than kylie minogue turning up on my doorstep with nothing on but lingerie and a cheeky smile
Post edited December 15, 2009 by Aliasalpha
akwater
Who am I?
akwater Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States