I understand that we have the law, but I'm saying that this was such a minor issue there was no need at all for the law to get involved. Yes, the town was idiotic to think they could overturn 30 years of court cases, but I think the girl overreacted tremendously. There was absolutely no need for a lawsuit, unless her eyes started bleeding because she read the prayer.

Ye, that's the best way to put it. The school should have acted accordingly and remove the banner, and she shouldn't have done anything more about it.

So not having this prayer thing on the wall is jeopardizing people's well being, and lives even?

I get where you're coming from. Angry and forceful religious people ARE the cause of many of the world's problems. But at the same time, in America, in MY experience with the few atheists I've known and reading the news--- atheists cause just as many problems by being self entitled jerks who constantly argue with and belittle people of any faith, then sue them if they try to exhibit their faith in any way. Again, that's just my experience with the people I've known. I obviously don't know you, and I have nothing against you.

You're letting your own beliefs (a lack of beliefs would be someone who has no opinion on the matter, which you obviously are not) blind you. Atheists do just as much to try and force their own beliefs on others as Christians do--and this is true even when those beliefs are perfectly legit. I don't think there is a single issue I've seen where Atheists weren't just as aggressive and just as dogmatic as the Christians they were debating. I don't see how "churches" enter into this discussion. The presence or lack of a communal gathering place doesn't at all relate to how pushy someone is.

No, I should have made myself more clear. I don't mean that this case was very important. But when it comes to people's safety vs. their rights, I'm going to side with safety every time. The whole TSA in airports debate comes to mind. I have no problem with getting scanned or patted down, as long as it prevents others from getting hurt. I think it's dumb to complain about a 30 second pat down being unconstitutional.

Indeed, thanks for focusing my thoughts. I had no intention of treating people as a group, everyone is an individual.


If reports are correct, yes. IMO, she was being silly. Some of the other people in question were being downright criminal.

Ye, that's stupid, I totally agree. There are crappy people on both sides.
We're in the minority around here, so believers have been a lot more aggressive. Maybe it is different where you are. :)

On a related note, they wanted to add a mandatory subject, something about Jesus and crap, for 10 year old kids to learn. How's that not aggressive?

I think the sooner more people realize that (which they won't), the better. Nothing is getting accomplished by everyone just childishly screeching at each other. After all...we're all humans. We're all on the same side. We should be trying our best to work together on the things that are important--not finding excuses to get at each other's throats.
You're putting words in my mouth and forming rebuttals for them. I never gave any hint that I think that's NOT aggressive.

I think more of the activism of recent years by atheists has been active repression by religion. If you look at history and even modern polls - atheists represent such a small fragment of the population and have been demonized from our existence as untrustworthy because we didn't believe God and therefore couldn't have morals. After a few hundred years of that, it is therefore not really surprising that atheists are a bit more prickly than most when when it comes to separation of church and state. Some atheists may take it too far - and have become too angry for my tastes, but I can see why. To quote Shylock: "Thou calledst me dog before thou hadst a cause. But since I am a dog, beware my fangs." It turns out, some people get upset when they're constantly informed how they can't be moral and decent human beings because they don't believe in God.

You're profile says you're from Macedonia. All I know about that country is that it's somewhere above Greece and Alexander the Great came from there. :P But I do know that the whole christianity vs. Islam vs. Secularism is really heated in eastern Europe, so I can understand why you're so indignant. Yes, mandating a Biblical class in a public school is pretty dumb. Spirituality and religion shouldn't be forced on people, especially when they're young and impressionable. It should be a serious decision and lifestyle that you accept over time, in your own home and church. So, on behalf of Christians everywhere, I'm sorry what the extremists and fundamentalists of our faith have done. I think it's ridiculous that the christians where you're from feel the need to be "more aggressive," if that is indeed the case.

Atheists are minority everywhere ... except maybe the internet. Either because of a selection effect or there are a lot more atheists who are too afraid to admit to being atheists. :)

You're probably right. We haven't exactly been the best when it comes to dealing with diametrically opposed views. And I apologize for that. I would honestly love to have a talk with a rational atheist about what you do believe. I guess it isn't that surprising that idiots like Jerry Falwell and Pat Buchannan would spawn idiots like Richard Dawkins in the other camp. In fact, there is an incredible two part South Park episode about similar issues.

Only if one views not letting someone else force their religious view on people as forcing your views on them which some (and I'm not saying you are one) religious people do. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard a right-wing Christian say that allowing gay people to marry violates their constitutional rights to religion - note they weren't being forced to attend or have it in their place of worship, just that it would happen at all was somehow against their rights. If believing that argument is nonsense is pushing one's views on someone else, then yeah I'm guilty. I'm curious as to when you've experienced atheists enforcing their view on you? (I'm not saying it can't happen btw, I'm just curious as to what happened?)

I'd also like to point that being secular is not the same thing as being atheist. There are many upon many religious people who believe quite strongly in separation of church and state- some even more than their atheist counterparts.

Are there assholes who are atheists? Absolutely. I've met quite a few who disgusted me to the bottom of my core. Have I met assholes who were liberal? Yup. Have some of my best friends and people whose intelligence and decency I have never doubted been conservatives and some religious conservatives? Yes (though the religious ones are open minded towards how other people live their lives). I long since learned that simply because someone purports to believe in the same things you do neither makes them intelligent nor a decent human being. The corollary being that there are many intelligent, decent people who believe in very different things.