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Heretic777: I think digital distribution reduced game prices dramatically. I used to think $20 was a good price for a good game. I would buy 1 PSX Greatest Hits game per month and thought that i got a good deal. Before i discovered Steam, GOG, Amazon, Gamersgate, i bought Fallout 3 GotY and Oblivion GotY for $20 each and thought that i got a great deal. Nowadays, i never spend more than $5 for a game. I just wait for holiday sales and get AAA titles for that price. This past Xmas is a perfect example:

Fallout New Vegas Ultimate = $5
Dungeon Siege Trilogy Collection = $5
Command and Conquer Ultimate = $5
Aliens Colonial Marines = $2
LA Noire and Max Payne 3 = $3

Before digital distribution, all the titles above would have been $20 and now they are $5 or less during sales.
Yes! I remember thinking digital distribution being a crap 'cos I like to have and read and touch game manuals and feel that smell of new when you open a game, but also those prices were luxury to me. Now I can afford to buy so many games LEGALLY at cheap prices, although, at same time, its a bit sad can't have them physically... Oh well! You can't have it all.
Post edited February 19, 2014 by ElPrimordial
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Heretic777: Before digital distribution, all the titles above would have been $20 and now they are $5 or less during sales.
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ElPrimordial: Yes! I remember thinking digital distribution being a crap 'cos I like to have and read and touch game manuals and feel that smell of new when you open a game, but also those prices were luxury to me. Now I can afford to buy so many games LEGALLY at cheap prices, although, at same time, its a bit sad can't have them physically... Oh well! You can't have it all.
Digital is great because i don't have to pack and store my game collection anymore, its all online and backup on my external HD. I dont miss the big boxes and manuals at all. I can travel anywhere in the world and have my entire game collection at my fingertip, i just love the digital revolution.
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jamyskis: ...
Exactly.

And it's dramatic for the whole industry between indies and AAA. How can a developer (or a producer) make an ambitious game without a AAA budget while it could need much more than an actual indie game? How can he even try if he sells at the current rate without implying DLCs, in-app purchases? Especially if the game he is actually trying to make is made for a niche? And what about indies willing to make ambitious games, too? No matter what marketing could try, a niche reminds a niche.

For example, if you look at strategy games, you can see what some companies slowly did, like Paradox since 2007: every game produced before was a full game, with sometimes a big expansion, and modding. But they were often full of bugs at release, and most of these bugs were corrected by the big expansion. But look at their games produced since then, plenty of DLCs, and yes, their games aren't so broken than the previous ones, but, except Multiplayer and diehard fans, who would even try to buy full price any of those games at release, since you will need to buy more than 15 DLCs after that to have a plenty full experience? In fact, that business model isn't only broken, but it is a vicious circle: you keep low prices to attract people, but because of the kind of games, there can be many to buy but there aren't so many still playing to buy further DLCs, and since the whole game is incomplete without those DLCs, you have lots of people waiting to buy "complete edition" at a lower price than you thought. And so on.

If you look at some other niche games which marketing was trying to make popular, like Company of Heroes, Total War or X Rebirth, there is a ridiculous amount of DLCs for Company of Heroes, and massive cut off Rome 2 Total War if you compare it to the previous Rome Total War. Greek cities as a DLC? Seriously? WTF?
And there is another thing (that's why I mentionned X Rebirth too while not having DLCs): marketing was focusing on fancy graphics, because for almost everyone, great graphics are the only feature that needs money. But that isn't true, and for strategy and other complex games, great graphics aren't the real core, IMHO. It isn't what needs more money to achieve an ambitious game. Concerning those previous games, AI is way more important than any fancy graphics, and that's why we had the Rome 2 Total War and X Rebirth fiascos.

Historical games need research to have accurate data and gameplay (unhistorical and fictional games too if they wanted to have a deeper experience); complex games need strong AI; narrative RPGs need choices and consequences gameplay; Point n' click need things to add more replayability (RPG-like side quests, for example); and so on. But they aren't AAA, and most of them can't pretend to have AAA graphics.

Should every game try that "x^n DLCs, in-apps, episodic" business model, only to have more content than games like Flappy Bird? How depressing is it. I'm playing video games, not watching 20-seasons-TV series.
Post edited February 19, 2014 by Huinehtar
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Heretic777: I think digital distribution reduced game prices dramatically.
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jamyskis: That's not necessarily a good thing. The plunge in game prices in digital distribution is attributable to a number of factors, none of them particularly positive.

Firstly, there's competing shovelware - digital distribution has massively lowered market entry barriers, which has caused a in-storm of poor-quality crap that abuses the term "indie". It makes it difficult to compete while remaining profitable.

Then there's the Steam-sale mentality - When Steam was trying to establish itself, it offered sales at ridiculously low prices to try and tempt people away from physical media. Such sales are starting to disappear - most Steam sales of triple-A titles are usually at parity with retail anyway - but it hasn't stopped the mentality of "oh, I'll wait for a Steam sale".

And when games don't sell well for more than $10-15, developers and publishers will adapt their business models and product quality accordingly. We're now seeing games with poorer production values, shorter play times, in-app purchases, countless amounts of DLC and so on, and so forth.

The PC is just about holding its head above water, but if you want an example of a fundamentally broken economy, look at Android and iOS, where selling a game at $1 is usually setting the bar too high.
So blame it all on steam eh?

There has always been crappy games. Always.

I would never ever want to go back to boxed-only era, God-or-whatever bless digital distribution. There has never been so many indie games and good ones to boot as these days.

Not counting mobile gaming, i dont really think there is % more shovelware than before - its just there are 100x more developers and small companies than in say -90's let alone before that.

Anyways, the market has grown, thus its feasible to lower prices for games as well. I do not see huge problem here, unlike you seem to see.
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Leucius: Um.... Why would you take something from 2007, right before the world economy took a shit, and base it on current economics?

Yeah, of course things were really good in 2007. We were world-wide living on a bubble. Since then, that bubble's burst. We now have unemployment agencies that come after people like collection agencies because of mistakes they themselves have made. Minimum wage has gone up less than 75 cents in my home state since I was 18, which was close to 20 years ago. For people on foodstamps, they keep getting their assistance cut unless they pop out kids, which in the end makes the problem worse.

Tell me again how things are better now than they've ever been before. You're either batshit insane or you're a politico. And if you're one of the top 1%, maybe you should take some of that wealth and buy some common sense, because the other 99% of us aren't doing so hot.
Because if we took it right now, the situation would be even worse than it was in 2007 and it takes time to compile the statistics relevant to making those charts. For the point he was making, it's not relevant.
I think we are just all cheapasses now.as been mentioned past steam sales and everyone jumping onto the (formerly mostly Indie) bundle scene lowered price expectations. great for consumers. not so great for bulk of indie devs trying to make a living
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tinyE: I always thought the best argument was so that homeless people could play them.
I used to work with the homeless a lot and met a boy who was 500 hours into a free-to-play RPG I'd never heard of which he only played at the library. That was, in essence, his day job.

I also once saw two very poor people at the soup kitchen with ancient laptops playing what looked like may have been Command and Conquer with each other on a touchpad. It was a sight to behold.
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Leucius: Um.... Why would you take something from 2007, right before the world economy took a shit, and base it on current economics?

Yeah, of course things were really good in 2007. We were world-wide living on a bubble. Since then, that bubble's burst. We now have unemployment agencies that come after people like collection agencies because of mistakes they themselves have made. Minimum wage has gone up less than 75 cents in my home state since I was 18, which was close to 20 years ago. For people on foodstamps, they keep getting their assistance cut unless they pop out kids, which in the end makes the problem worse.

Tell me again how things are better now than they've ever been before. You're either batshit insane or you're a politico. And if you're one of the top 1%, maybe you should take some of that wealth and buy some common sense, because the other 99% of us aren't doing so hot.
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hedwards: Because if we took it right now, the situation would be even worse than it was in 2007 and it takes time to compile the statistics relevant to making those charts. For the point he was making, it's not relevant.
The point _bruce was making was a statement that things are better now than they have been in the recent past, based on a wikipedia article and a chart from 2007. I wasn't referring to the OP.

Thanks, though :)
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Niggles: I think we are just all cheapasses now.as been mentioned past steam sales and everyone jumping onto the (formerly mostly Indie) bundle scene lowered price expectations. great for consumers. not so great for bulk of indie devs trying to make a living
Well...aside from the principle of wasting money in an overpopulated and dirt poor world.....

I think we've been angered into becoming cheap asses.

There's too much crapware out there tricking people out of cash.

Too many big wigs trying to force exclusive products and upgrades.

We've all been through Steam's tech support system because we've felt ripped off.

We've all been told by our peers "That's what you get for spending before looking."

Cheapassery helps us not to hurt too much when said game turns out to be "Vista Only" (for the purpose of retro coolness!) we can just scoff "Meh, it was only a buck and I got a 4 other Triple A titles with it!"
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tinyE: I always thought the best argument was so that homeless people could play them.
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Tallima: I used to work with the homeless a lot and met a boy who was 500 hours into a free-to-play RPG I'd never heard of which he only played at the library. That was, in essence, his day job.

I also once saw two very poor people at the soup kitchen with ancient laptops playing what looked like may have been Command and Conquer with each other on a touchpad. It was a sight to behold.
A sight to behold? Why? I'm sure, homeless people like to have fun just like everyone else.
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carnival73: We've all been through Steam's tech support system because we've felt ripped off.
uh, no?
monkeydelarge, the idea that there is something special of magical about manufacturing is meritless.
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Kristian: monkeydelarge, the idea that there is something special of magical about manufacturing is meritless.
Kristian, the cost of making a model train, making a package to put it in, sending the package with the model train inside to a hobby store costs more than having someone download DLC from a server.
Post edited February 21, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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Kristian: monkeydelarge, the idea that there is something special of magical about manufacturing is meritless.
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monkeydelarge: Kristian, the cost of making a model train, making a package to put it in, sending the package with the model train inside to a hobby store costs more than having someone download DLC from a server.
So? 1$ in value added of services is worth exactly the same as 1$ in value added of services.
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carnival73: ...
The problem isn't that we are poorer than 30 years ago... The problem is, that we "need" too much "important" things, because our "old" stuff isn't good anymore. Do you know anyone who still has his first generation flatscreen TV (the affordable ones from 10 years ago, not the 10-15k ones from the late 90s)? I don't (and now they're coming up with 4k UHD, making your HD TV outdated)... But I remember that my grandma had her TV running for more than 20 years. And what's going on with smartphones? How many 2 years old smartphones are still out there? Almost none, because even the shitiest contract ends after two years. So people will make a new one, where they pay 20 bucks for internet, another 20 bucks for calls and another 20 bucks for their shiny new iPhone 5S. Monthly, of course... But hey, don't worry, you can save 10 bucks monthly! If you get your landline, internet and TV from the same company, for another 60 bucks... My grandma had her phone (landline)... uhm... Shit, I don't think she ever bought a new one... And she didn't have any expensive flatrates (now she pays 20 Euro including internet). AND she didn't pay for watching TV.

It's the same with tablets/laptops/PCs... Your "Facebook machine" doesn't need an i7 QuadCore, 8GB RAM and a SSD... You don't need an iPad Air, which is so expensive that you get it for "almost nothing" with a contract for mobile internet (although you don't really need it, because you'll use your tablet at home), involving even more monthly fees. If you don't work (I'm not talking about Office and Excel) or game with your PC, you don't need the newest hardware. And you don't need 100Mb download speed (12Mb is enough for most of us... You don't need to download Dragon Age in 1 hour).

No, we're not poorer than 30 years ago... I think we're pretty rich. We just have to remember that a new TV won't change the TV program. That a new smartphone will have the same apps as the old one. That Facebook will still be Facebook, no matter how good our new PC is and no matter how much faster our 50Mb connection is that we got for another 10 bucks. We have to remember, that (looks at Steam) Anno 2070 for 75% off isn't a good deal when we have 50+ games in our backlogs. We're so effing rich, we're wasting our money for stuff we never use. We're not poor. We're just the slaves of our own consumerism and the victims of advertising psychology.