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Lebostein: What a team. No one knows what the other is doing. Presumably they are in dispute. [...] Maybe he is on strike and wants more money for his work (a bigger slice of the cake) .... who knows ...
Err... How did you get this from what they said, exactly? Were there some other communication I didn't see? Cause all I interpreted in that announcement is that their specialist is working full time on it, and the other guys can only trust their collegue's evaluation about his area of expertise.
I'm part of a 3 faily specialized men team. I'm the geologist/hydrogeologist. When my manager says to our boss "Marc should be done with his part next tuesday. Maybe a little later", it doesn't mean he's incompetent or that I'm on strike. It simply means I told him that I would need at least until tuesday to finish my work, and he can't help me with geology.
Anyone know how long it takes to remove steamworks from a steamworked game?. Surely it cant take this long
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Niggles: Anyone know how long it takes to remove steamworks from a steamworked game?. Surely it cant take this long
RELOADED did it a couple of days before the game was released on Steam, so I guess not that long :D

this is really getting silly, either the the developers simply don't consider releasing DRM-free version a good idea, or a worthy one...
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Niggles: Anyone know how long it takes to remove steamworks from a steamworked game?. Surely it cant take this long
Depends how integrated it is, but it's generally not long. If you've only included achievements and possibly externally managed cloud saves, then the executable can be run outside of Steam without a hitch - the Steam API functions handling these aspects simply return an error in the background and the user never notices.

If it extensively uses the Steam networking functionality (community, matchmaking, P2P, user data acquisition etc.) then it's a little more tricky, but many devs thankfully have the foresight and common sense to not make their game TOO dependent on Steam. 11-bit Studios and Larian, for example, only used achievements as well as the P2P/matchmaking functionality for multiplayer, which no doubt made chopping it out for the DRM-free versions a bit simpler.

Stripping out CEG should be absolutely no problem unless the developer is a complete moron, because the executable metadata needs to be generated from the standalone executable, so there must have been a DRM-free build to begin with.

In fact, I believe crackers have successfully managed to remove CEG routines from binaries without access to source code, so even if the developer by way of some act of obscene stupidity or absurd misfortune loses the DRM-free build AND the source code, the DRM'd build can still be 'liberated' of CEG.

There are very few games that are so intrinsically intertwined with Steamworks so as to be inseparable. For that to be the case, the game would have to be:

* Multiplayer-only
* Contain no LAN play functionality (only matchmaking/P2P through Steam user data)
* So poorly coded that it terminates upon failure of a Steamworks API function

I actually can't think of any games that fit this bill. Team Fortress 2 and Alien Swarm maybe. As far as I'm aware the vast majority of the MMOs on Steam use their own account management systems separately from the Steamworks API.

Edit: I forgot the ever infamous DotA 2 as well.
Post edited January 28, 2014 by jamyskis
Did they actually promise a DRM-free version?
If I remember right, they did not at first. They launched the KS for a steam game. DRM free came up later, when they asked what platform we would prefer for the game, and some backers (including me) asked for a GOG release.

I may be wrong, though. It's been a while.
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KneeTheCap: Did they actually promise a DRM-free version?
C/P from my old post :)

THE GAME

Our first priority has always been to make a role-playing game that feels and looks fresh, and plays like the classic tactical strategy games of our childhood. It's not about defeating the villain and saving the day. It's not about grinding to get past the next fight. The Banner Saga throws you into the end of the world and asks "how do you deal with this"?

DRM-Free, and available on PC and Mac
Not another generic fantasy: Drawing heavily from Norse culture while creating its own identity and mythology, The Banner Saga takes a low-fantasy approach to viking themes. Giants: yes. Horned helmets: no.
Strategic combat: Recruit a large roster of unique characters throughout the story, each with different abilities that interact in combat in a deeply tactical way and personalities of their own. The Banner Saga harkens back to classic turn-based gameplay with a strong emphasis on tactics over brute force and endless grinding.
Travel across gorgeous landscapes: The choices you make as events arise have a huge affect on how the story plays out- who survives, who dies, and what's worth saving. Add people to your caravan as you travel, or lose them when tough decisions arise. You're not just fighting to save nameless strangers, you're fighting for your neighbors, your family and your way of life. We want you to care what happens to them.
An emphasis on story: Your choices in dialogue and throughout the game truly affect the story and the people around you. A mature story for adults means forming relationships and making tough decisions; not sex, violence and swearing.
Play online: Though the single-player campaign is our focus, The Banner Saga provides a deep multiplayer game; build a unique party of characters and battle friends and enemies in multiplayer combat. Upgrade your party over time and devise new strategies.
Risk in gameplay: A lot of modern games play it safe- you know you'll defeat the evil and save the day. In The Banner Saga you can't take anything for granted. We want it to feel like a good tv mini-series; the world doesn't revolve around you, it's about how you deal with change.

What does "Chapter 1" of the full game mean? We've added an explanation in the faq below.
Post edited January 28, 2014 by Skysect
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KneeTheCap: Did they actually promise a DRM-free version?
Not sure about a promise but
http://thebannersaga.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ

The DRM part reads like it.
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KneeTheCap: Did they actually promise a DRM-free version?
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Reaper9988: Not sure about a promise but
http://thebannersaga.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ

The DRM part reads like it.
"
Will The Banner Saga be DRM-free? (Spoiler: yes) Isn't something like Steam technically DRM?

DRM-free = yes. We have no intention of installing invasive software on your computer.

You will always have the option of downloading a standalone version of the game to play on your hard drive, if you prefer not to use services like Steam."

Dont you just love the bit "We have no intention of installing invasive software on your computer. ". Its the comment dev's seem to use when they aren't totally convinced (imho) by offering drm free :/
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Kunovski: RELOADED did it a couple of days before the game was released on Steam, so I guess not that long :D
Removing != replacing
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Kunovski: RELOADED did it a couple of days before the game was released on Steam, so I guess not that long :D
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Fenixp: Removing != replacing
true... still don't understand it though, if they planned a DRM-free version from the start (according to the FAQ above) did they really implement the "steam goodness" so deep it takes them weeks before getting it out again?
Didn't they promise drm free from the beginning? If so, they should not have just one version with steam works in mind. That would be stupid. They got the money, so they should keep their word. One programmer or not, that is not a burden on the customer, that is a burden on the developer. If you aren't going to provide a drm free copy, then don't lie and say you are. First it was coming at launch, then within a few days, then the first patch and/or first week. What BS.
For crying out loud guys, check facts before making claims - you expect that from others too.

Yes they did promise a DRM-free version.
No they did not promised a simultaneous launch.
No they didn't stated that the DRM-free version would take longer to release, either - which is the reason for the understandable anger.
Yes Steam is implemented deeper than usually. Banner Saga Factions (the free-to-play multiplayer) groundwork if you want, was developed on Steam / beta was on Steam.
No, if you're the dev of a programm, "patching" it with the way hackers do their cracks isn't even an option - your paying customers wouldn't accept that.
They are a 3 guys team. 3 guys and only 1 of them for programming. And you expect the Steam, DRM-free, Mac, Linux version at the same time....

Yes, I'm pissed about it too, believe it or not. But asking the same questions which have been answered several times before or the inability to google for "kickstarter banner saga" and clicking on the first link showing up, to check for yourself? No comment.
Post edited January 28, 2014 by Siannah
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Siannah: For crying out loud guys, check facts before making claims - you expect that from others too.

Yes they did promise a DRM-free version.
No they did not promised a simultaneous launch.
No they didn't stated that the DRM-free version would take longer to release, either - which is the reason for the understandable anger.
Yes Steam is implemented deeper than usually. Banner Saga Factions (the free-to-play multiplayer) groundwork if you want, was developed on Steam / beta was on Steam.
No, if you're the dev of a programm, "patching" it with the way hackers do their cracks isn't even an option - your paying customers wouldn't accept that.
They are a 3 guys team. 3 guys and only 1 of them for programming. And you expect the Steam, DRM-free, Mac, Linux version at the same time....

Yes, I'm pissed about it too, believe it or not. But asking the same questions which have been answered several times before or the inability to google for "kickstarter banner saga" and clicking on the first link showing up, to check for yourself? No comment.
If you read jamyskis post, as a dev how long would you estimate it takes?. We all want the single player without the multiplayer aspect (many backers didn't care for factions tbh).
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Niggles: If you read jamyskis post, as a dev how long would you estimate it takes?. We all want the single player without the multiplayer aspect (many backers didn't care for factions tbh).
I'm not a dev, don't have any insight into Steamworks, have no idea what Stoic did / didn't do, how much experience that 1 guy programming had with it nor how many possible traps there are and he managed to hit or not.
Now why should I even guess in the first place? Write 10 possible scenarios on your wall, blindly throw a dart at it and you get an estimation with the same worth - nothing.

Which is exactly what I'm criticising. There's so much thrown in that lacks ANY facts, but get's picked up as if it is so. If I don't have facts, I'll go with uneducated guesses? Sry no, I refuse to go down that road.

I pointed out what we can do and where it might help. Ranting here, doesn't. End of saga.
Post edited January 28, 2014 by Siannah