It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
cogadh: It's not that creationism is a threat, its that it is a ridiculous fairy tale idea that would be more suited for a discussion in a creative fiction or classic literature class than a science class.
avatar
Faithful: This only proves the point that creation or evolution cannot be empirically proven and thus they are both as much in your words a "fairy tale idea."
If there were proof of evolution then it would only need be presented and this would be a non-issue, but there is none.

The difference is, evolution can be proven through empirical study and at this point in our history pretty much has been. Creationism can never be proven any more than the creation myths of any other religion or belief system. If we are going to give creationism the same level of credibility as evolution in a scientific forum, then we also have to give every other one of those fairy tales the same credibility, or do you have no problems with adding things like the Mayan creation myth to science classes, which states that the "Heart of the Sky" created humans out of maize?
avatar
Faithful: This only proves the point that creation or evolution cannot be empirically proven and thus they are both as much in your words a "fairy tale idea."
If there were proof of evolution then it would only need be presented and this would be a non-issue, but there is none.
avatar
ceemdee: Not having enough evidence to prove something is true is irrelevant. What matters is if something can be proven false. Certain evidence could be able to prove evolution false but creationism can never be proven false because it's based purely on belief and therefor does not belong in a science classroom.

I am not trying to pick an argument here, but are you saying because humans cannot prove God the entire idea of God creating has to summarily thrown out and never considered as viable at any level?
While at the same time believing in something that can only be proven as false because tests can be run to prove it false on parts of creation/matter.
It just seems like a simple answer to a complex issue. Those that are creationist, I am sure could give scientific reasons for their points of view, but the different is the foundation of that view is rooted in the Bible. That seems to be the larger issue for many people (like the video that was less about any information and more about bashing Christianity).
avatar
Faithful: I am not trying to pick an argument here, but are you saying because humans cannot prove God the entire idea of God creating has to summarily thrown out and never considered as viable at any level?
While at the same time believing in something that can only be proven as false because tests can be run to prove it false on parts of creation/matter.
It just seems like a simple answer to a complex issue. Those that are creationist, I am sure could give scientific reasons for their points of view, but the different is the foundation of that view is rooted in the Bible. That seems to be the larger issue for many people (like the video that was less about any information and more about bashing Christianity).

Yes and no. The idea of creationism has no basis in fact, the scientific method or even legitimate theory. That doesn't mean it should be completely thrown out, just that it has no place in a science class. It is far more suited to philosophical, religious or social history classes. If creationism were added to that kind of class and taught within its appropriate context, then I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it except those truly anti-Christian people and we don't really care what they have to say anyway.
BTW - why is it that every time someone criticizes the "Creationism Movement", it is immediately seen as "bashing Christianity"? From what I saw in that cartoon, it was "bashing" at least 3 or 4 different belief systems and when it finally did get to Christianity, all it did was show, in abbreviated form, exactly what the religious right has said and tried to do in their efforts to get creationism into the classroom.
avatar
Faithful: I am not trying to pick an argument here, but are you saying because humans cannot prove God the entire idea of God creating has to summarily thrown out and never considered as viable at any level?
While at the same time believing in something that can only be proven as false because tests can be run to prove it false on parts of creation/matter.
It just seems like a simple answer to a complex issue. Those that are creationist, I am sure could give scientific reasons for their points of view, but the different is the foundation of that view is rooted in the Bible. That seems to be the larger issue for many people (like the video that was less about any information and more about bashing Christianity).

The point is that it doesn't belong in a science classroom. cogadh stated it much better though. (edit: damn it now I sound like a parrot)
If we teach Creationism then we should also teach Scientology and do you know how much that would cost?! Do you want to bankrupt all of the schools?! Huh?! HUH?! ;P
Post edited April 07, 2010 by ceemdee
avatar
Faithful: I am not trying to pick an argument here, but are you saying because humans cannot prove God the entire idea of God creating has to summarily thrown out and never considered as viable at any level?
While at the same time believing in something that can only be proven as false because tests can be run to prove it false on parts of creation/matter.
It just seems like a simple answer to a complex issue. Those that are creationist, I am sure could give scientific reasons for their points of view, but the different is the foundation of that view is rooted in the Bible. That seems to be the larger issue for many people (like the video that was less about any information and more about bashing Christianity).
avatar
cogadh: Yes and no. The idea of creationism has no basis in fact, the scientific method or even legitimate theory. That doesn't mean it should be completely thrown out, just that it has no place in a science class. It is far more suited to philosophical, religious or social history classes. If creationism were added to that kind of class and taught within its appropriate context, then I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it except those truly anti-Christian people and we don't really care what they have to say anyway.
BTW - why is it that every time someone criticizes the "Creationism Movement", it is immediately seen as "bashing Christianity"? From what I saw in that cartoon, it was "bashing" at least 3 or 4 different belief systems and when it finally did get to Christianity, all it did was show, in abbreviated form, exactly what the religious right has said and tried to do in their efforts to get creationism into the classroom.

Because the cartoon WAS bashing Christianity. It felt the need to emphasize the mockery of Christianity.
Think of it like kids playing punch-buggies or whatever. Little Jimmy lightly punches Little Freddy in the arm. Little Jimmy then gives Little Tommy a concussion. Why? Because Little Tommy's dad is a frequent client of Little Jimmy's mother.
Same basic concept. From a glance it looks like it is just a stupid joke video, but then you notice that it is picking on one religion in particular.
avatar
cogadh: Yes and no. The idea of creationism has no basis in fact, the scientific method or even legitimate theory. That doesn't mean it should be completely thrown out, just that it has no place in a science class. It is far more suited to philosophical, religious or social history classes. If creationism were added to that kind of class and taught within its appropriate context, then I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it except those truly anti-Christian people and we don't really care what they have to say anyway.

Can you tell me what basis in fact evolution has on its side? I mean indisputable fact that points clearly to the universe evolving from death to life, from single cell to man.
avatar
cogadh: BTW - why is it that every time someone criticizes the "Creationism Movement", it is immediately seen as "bashing Christianity"? From what I saw in that cartoon, it was "bashing" at least 3 or 4 different belief systems and when it finally did get to Christianity, all it did was show, in abbreviated form, exactly what the religious right has said and tried to do in their efforts to get creationism into the classroom.

If you watch the video again, when it shows religions the first two are stated in passing, when it got to Christianity, it attempted to frame it in the light of the worst things people think of to seek to minimize it and make it seem ridiculous. That is why I said bashing, since it was clearly trying to make a point, and truth be told it is Judeo-Christian belief that holds to creationism and seeks to build everything from there.
Post edited April 07, 2010 by Faithful
avatar
cogadh: Yes and no. The idea of creationism has no basis in fact, the scientific method or even legitimate theory. That doesn't mean it should be completely thrown out, just that it has no place in a science class. It is far more suited to philosophical, religious or social history classes. If creationism were added to that kind of class and taught within its appropriate context, then I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it except those truly anti-Christian people and we don't really care what they have to say anyway.
BTW - why is it that every time someone criticizes the "Creationism Movement", it is immediately seen as "bashing Christianity"? From what I saw in that cartoon, it was "bashing" at least 3 or 4 different belief systems and when it finally did get to Christianity, all it did was show, in abbreviated form, exactly what the religious right has said and tried to do in their efforts to get creationism into the classroom.
avatar
Gundato: Because the cartoon WAS bashing Christianity. It felt the need to emphasize the mockery of Christianity.
Think of it like kids playing punch-buggies or whatever. Little Jimmy lightly punches Little Freddy in the arm. Little Jimmy then gives Little Tommy a concussion. Why? Because Little Tommy's dad is a frequent client of Little Jimmy's mother.
Same basic concept. From a glance it looks like it is just a stupid joke video, but then you notice that it is picking on one religion in particular.

You missed the point then. Christianity, or more specifically certain Christians, are the people pushing the idea of creationism in our schools. Of course they are going to be the focus of the lampooning of that idea. If it were Buddhists pushing their ideas, then Buddhists would have been the focus of the joke. It is not a "bashing" of Christianity as a whole, just those that are trying to push a completely non-scientific and illogical concept into the classroom as legitimate science, nothing more.
avatar
Gundato: Because the cartoon WAS bashing Christianity. It felt the need to emphasize the mockery of Christianity.
Think of it like kids playing punch-buggies or whatever. Little Jimmy lightly punches Little Freddy in the arm. Little Jimmy then gives Little Tommy a concussion. Why? Because Little Tommy's dad is a frequent client of Little Jimmy's mother.
Same basic concept. From a glance it looks like it is just a stupid joke video, but then you notice that it is picking on one religion in particular.
avatar
cogadh: You missed the point then. Christianity, or more specifically certain Christians, are the people pushing the idea of creationism in our schools. Of course they are going to be the focus of the lampooning of that idea. If it were Buddhists pushing their ideas, then Buddhists would have been the focus of the joke. It is not a "bashing" of Christianity as a whole, just those that are trying to push a completely non-scientific and illogical concept into the classroom as legitimate science, nothing more.

Again, that would work, if it ended on "no, go get a Christian to speak". But it then proceeds to pull out the KKK, some representation of the anti-christ, and a claim that Jesus isn't even applicable. That is kind of bashing...
avatar
Faithful: Can you tell me what basis in fact evolution has on its side? I mean indisputable fact that points clearly to the universe evolving from death to life, from single cell to man.

Certainly, though Ian Johnston puts it much better than I ever could have:
We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.
Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).
The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).
The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.
The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).
Well, if we put these three points together, the rational case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.
To make the claim for the scientific truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.
avatar
Gundato: Again, that would work, if it ended on "no, go get a Christian to speak". But it then proceeds to pull out the KKK, some representation of the anti-christ, and a claim that Jesus isn't even applicable. That is kind of bashing...

Its only bashing if it weren't actually true. The creationists have changed their stance on what would be an appropriate way to introduce creationism into schools so many times that I'm not sure any of them actually agree on how to do it. Some wanted the extreme point of view of the likes of the KKK which state that only the white race was created by God, then they wanted Pat Robertson's loony ideas, others wanted it to have a more Catholic tone, which riled the non-Catholic faiths (that was the Pope he was calling the anti-christ) then they realized the only way to get it in was to drop some of the religious aspects of it, hence Jesus being "inappropriate".
Post edited April 07, 2010 by cogadh
Wow, I am not a scientific person by a long shot, but this long story is based on taking several things for granted and starting from a point of view where things are already "evolved." He wants his readers to believe him because he thinks things are so, nothing more.
We can go around and around on this forever and still be no closer to an answer, but it is sort of fun in the process! :o)
What I keep thinking in my mind though is that evolution never promotes some things.
If evolution is true then there is no free will, no purpose to your life, and no reason to maintain civility since we would only go around one time, also there is no hope after this life, and no great reason to love anyone but yourself.
It also makes me think where does morality come from and where does music come from if evolution is the basis for everything?
I am not asking you to answer, it just makes me think how much is given away in believing such in evolution that rarely seem to be taken into consideration.
Thanks for the civil conversation, it is much appreciated. :o)
avatar
Faithful: Wow, I am not a scientific person by a long shot, but this long story is based on taking several things for granted and starting from a point of view where things are already "evolved." He wants his readers to believe him because he thinks things are so, nothing more.
We can go around and around on this forever and still be no closer to an answer, but it is sort of fun in the process! :o)
What I keep thinking in my mind though is that evolution never promotes some things.
If evolution is true then there is no free will, no purpose to your life, and no reason to maintain civility since we would only go around one time, also there is no hope after this life, and no great reason to love anyone but yourself.
It also makes me think where does morality come from and where does music come from if evolution is the basis for everything?
I am not asking you to answer, it just makes me think how much is given away in believing such in evolution that rarely seem to be taken into consideration.
Thanks for the civil conversation, it is much appreciated. :o)

If you stick to simply Newtonian physics you'd be correct. Everything could be calculated and predicted with enough measurements. Yet, there's this great thing called quantum mechanics/physics that does add the basis for free will... randomness.
avatar
Faithful: Wow, I am not a scientific person by a long shot, but this long story is based on taking several things for granted and starting from a point of view where things are already "evolved." He wants his readers to believe him because he thinks things are so, nothing more.
We can go around and around on this forever and still be no closer to an answer, but it is sort of fun in the process! :o)
What I keep thinking in my mind though is that evolution never promotes some things.
If evolution is true then there is no free will, no purpose to your life, and no reason to maintain civility since we would only go around one time, also there is no hope after this life, and no great reason to love anyone but yourself.
It also makes me think where does morality come from and where does music come from if evolution is the basis for everything?
I am not asking you to answer, it just makes me think how much is given away in believing such in evolution that rarely seem to be taken into consideration.
Thanks for the civil conversation, it is much appreciated. :o)

Why can't things like morality and creativity just come from human intelligence and self-awareness? Why do we have to degrade human accomplishments like the establishment of civilization by attributing it all to some god, rather than to the human race itself? We don't suck so much that nothing we do can be owned by us and us alone. How does evolution equate to a loss of free will or purpose? Even creationists and all other religions agree that free will is a fundamental part of humanity, regardless of what you believe; evolution does not change that. As for purpose, well, isn't finding a purpose for your life the goal of all humans? Whether we were created or evolved, that still hasn't changed.
avatar
Faithful: If evolution is true then there is no free will, no purpose to your life, and no reason to maintain civility since we would only go around one time, also there is no hope after this life, and no great reason to love anyone but yourself.

I thought Christians believed in fate and destiny and that its all part of gods plan. Also this forums biased. It feels the need capitalize Christianity but atheism's fine in lower case.
avatar
Salsa_Shark: Also this forums biased. It feels the need capitalize Christianity but atheism's fine in lower case.

That's because atheism is not a proper noun, while Christianity is. Oh, and its not the forum that does that, its your browser.
avatar
Faithful: If evolution is true then there is no free will, no purpose to your life, and no reason to maintain civility since we would only go around one time, also there is no hope after this life, and no great reason to love anyone but yourself.
It also makes me think where does morality come from and where does music come from if evolution is the basis for everything?

This seems to me to be the reason religion exists in the first place. Some people cannot believe in themselves, and so they require something outside themselves to believe in.
No free will? Why not?
No purpose to your life? Well, if the only purpose in life you can find is to suck up to people more powerful than you, then no, except that you could still find ordinary humans more powerful than you to suck up to, if that's the only thing that can satisfy you. Otherwise, you have such purpose as you make yourself. From an evolutionary point of view, your purpose in life is to procreate and protect your offspring. To give them a good start in life, and the tools to take care of themselves and their own children once you are no longer here to help them. It is also to participate in the continued evolution and betterment of your species as a whole. I'd say those are noble purposes.
No reason to maintain civility? Yes, it's called "common sense". And there is actually somewhat more reason in that than in religion. If you believe in being "chosen" because of your faith, why should you be civil to any other people?
And morality and music comes from the same place as everything else, evolution. As a species, there is an advantage in getting along with one another. Cooperation gets more, and more consistent results than conflict does. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is common sense, and a good strategy, from an evolutionary viewpoint. There is no need to have morality enforced by an imaginary bogeyman, as there are enough real bogeymen in life to enforce it for those who cannot figure it out for themselves.
A lack of a prospect of eternal life does not make this life pointless, it makes it all the more precious.
All this does not, however, add up to spirituality being pointless, or a waste of time, but it does tend to go that way once it gets organized and gets locked down into dogma. Science does not refute the existence of everything spiritual, but it does refute the "absolute truth" of ancient fairytales.
These are my views; conclusions based upon a variety of sources, both scientific, religious, fictitious and artistic. It is not my intention to offend, so I apologize if I have.