It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Farthest_Outpost: ...
It's a philosophical term "philosophy of despair" go look it up
or mabye I should try this if there is no God or no afterlife, what does life amount to? (sorry poorly worded the first time

Well it pretty much amounts to one of the biggest wonders universe has to offer I'd say.
Also, just downloaded book called philosophy of despair... I may actually find out a thing or two there :D
avatar
Farthest_Outpost: well I have found that athiests/pluralists/secularists/ect. tend to be pretty pushy when it comes to their beliefs (not saying you are in this case but a lot of them here are) (ironic, if they really believed in a pluralistic stance)

What does it take to get people like you to understand that science is not a belief? Until you do, you have no place making such claims as you make here.
Post edited April 17, 2010 by stonebro
avatar
Farthest_Outpost: well I have found that athiests/pluralists/secularists/ect. tend to be pretty pushy when it comes to their beliefs (not saying you are in this case but a lot of them here are) (ironic, if they really believed in a pluralistic stance)
avatar
stonebro: What does it take to get people like you to understand that science is not a belief? Until you do, you have no place making such claims as you make here.

Yeah, it gets so confusing. These non-believers who are just as adamant and militant as the average Jehova's Witness/Mormon/whoever knocks on your door. :P. I mean, it is not like they follow rules handed down from on high on what is right and what is wrong and how to do things. And they don't try to ruin the lives/livelihood of people who stray from said set of rules (unless they did it to promote Global Warming, but that is a different topic :p).
Seriously though, it is often scary how aggressive and borderline fanatical people get when people don't understand/don't agree with their "lack thereof" and the like.
Think of it like this: A drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in the Bible is "Because God said so". By that same token, a drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in a science textbook is "Because Science said so". Can you see the similarities? And yes, I know both are more complex than that, but it still boils down to believing what feels "right" to you.
avatar
Gundato: Think of it like this: A drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in the Bible is "Because God said so". By that same token, a drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in a science textbook is "Because Science said so". Can you see the similarities? And yes, I know both are more complex than that, but it still boils down to believing what feels "right" to you.

Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing science. Science is a process, not a belief.
avatar
Gundato: Think of it like this: A drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in the Bible is "Because God said so". By that same token, a drastic oversimplification of why someone believes something in a science textbook is "Because Science said so". Can you see the similarities? And yes, I know both are more complex than that, but it still boils down to believing what feels "right" to you.
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing science. Science is a process, not a belief.

Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing religion. Religion is a process of thought and evaluation, not a belief.
You see what I did there?
avatar
Gundato: Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing religion. Religion is a process of thought and evaluation, not a belief.
You see what I did there?

Showed your usual intellectual bankruptcy, demonstrating again why any discussion with you is absolutely worthless.
avatar
Gundato: Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing religion. Religion is a process of thought and evaluation, not a belief.
You see what I did there?

Yes. You shat on your leg.
Please refrain from posting as you are utterly clueless and completely unable at making a post which is not a perverse reversal of arguments that are actually valid.
In fact, I seem to recall you woving not to post in this thread a few pages back.
avatar
Gundato: Except that someone who simply believes something written in a book, whether it be a religious text or a science textbook, is not practicing religion. Religion is a process of thought and evaluation, not a belief.
You see what I did there?
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: Showed your usual intellectual bankruptcy, demonstrating again why any discussion with you is absolutely worthless.

Well, you completely converted me. I bow down to your logic.
Time to go say five Hail Darwins, twenty Our Professors, and The Investor's Prayer.
Seriously though, you should probably look more into the thing you are trying to bash (except for me, I am pretty much an open book).
Maybe it is a rare thing, but the way I was taught religion as a youth (Catholicism, for those who care) is that you aren't supposed to just memorize what the Bible says. You read the Bible, interpret it, and try to apply its aspects to your life. And if you see something you disagree with, you think about it. You talk to your priest and the like and try to gain a better understanding.
I have long since abandoned the religious aspect of that, but it is still a great way to live life. Read things, interpret them, and apply that which you learn from it to your life. Sound familiar? :p
Same thing with The Religion of "Science',err, atheism. The only differences are your source material (textbooks and hip websites as opposed to Holy Books and people with robes) and who you talk to about things (instead of priests we have professors and scientists).
The key difference between the way that many believe in "Science" and the way that people believe in religion is the core assertion.
For Religion, it often boils down to "there is a God and schle had prophets of some form". From there, most scripture is based upon the interpretation of said prophets/God(s), but with those things being backed up by that fundamental assertion. They are "right" because, at some point, some deity said they were (or at least said something they wrote down).
With Science, it is all a matter of the fundamental assertion which is summarized as "The Scientific Method". Observe stuff, think up a potential solution, and then test said solution. Repeat until the hypothesis seems correct. Beyond that, it then becomes a matter of a bunch of people who used that method and came up with hypotheses that they could make seem correct. They are "right" because at some point, the scientific method said they got close enough (yes, it is more complicated than that, but that is what it boils down to. It isn't proven correct, just likely).
While I would really prefer we go with the scientific method for advancing the state of technology, as far as the belief system (which is really what we are discussing, and why I keep saying "Science"), they are essentially the same thing. When asked why someone believes in God, the answer is "I know it in my heart" and the like. When asked why someone believes in Science, the answer is "I know it in my brain".
But then you realize that we don't think with our hearts, and that those two are the same answer :p
Everyone is searching for belonging and something to Believe in. For a lot of Atheists, that ends up being "Science" and the like. For a lot of religious people, it is Religion. And so forth. And THAT is why people keep referring to Atheism as a Religion and as having Beliefs. Because, at the end of the day, it is basically true. Maybe not a highly organized set of beliefs and maybe not according to the dictionary definition, but whatever.
Gundato, we've had quite a few discussions here on various topics, and in nearly all of them I've found the content beyond the first few posts to be worthless. You make deliberate efforts to misunderstand people's positions, to conflate terms, to bury the key points in numerous tangents. In short you do not seem to approach discussions honestly, but rather from the position of a sophist, applying whatever form of intellectual dishonesty suits the stance you've chosen to take. While I normally quite enjoy having discussions with people of differing opinions on the chance that my own views will be changed as a result such discussions are worthless if the other person is not willing to approach the discussion honestly, or tries to obfuscate the key concepts at stake. And the main thing that annoys me is that even though I know your modus operandi I still occasionally allow myself to respond to one of your posts under the belief that you're ready to have an honest discussion; I really should know better by now.
avatar
Gundato: Everyone is searching for belonging and something to Believe in. For a lot of Atheists, that ends up being "Science" and the like. For a lot of religious people, it is Religion. And so forth. And THAT is why people keep referring to Atheism as a Religion and as having Beliefs. Because, at the end of the day, it is basically true. Maybe not a highly organized set of beliefs and maybe not according to the dictionary definition, but whatever.

You seem to have the same problem that a lot of theists have in envisioning an atheistic worldview, imagining that if you were to stop believing in God, you would have this huge hole in your life that you would immediately have to fill with something else. That's not how it works.
When I stopped believing, I was surprised to find how little in my life actually changed. I was still me. So many things that I had previously attributed to religion turned out to be the same whether I believed or not. I don't feel any more need to find a ''substitute God'' to worship than you feel to find a substitute Zeus. Religion in general is just as irrelevant to me now as ghost dances are to you.
The only difference is that I don't have to sit around arguing about Greek gods and ghost dances all the time because I don't live in a country where temples of Zeus don't pay taxes, where the majority of the electorate says they won't vote for someone who doesn't make sacrifices to Athena, where every natural disaster sparks a debate about how Poseiden could have allowed it to happen, and where we go to war because the oracle says so.
avatar
Lou: As a note – remember Satan is the author of confusion, if there is confusion in an issue (Bible Version – Faith / Works) he is probably close to the center of the discord.

Now you seem to be saying that Satan wrote all these different bible versions that are floating around.
avatar
Lou: The issue of the Bible and which is God’s true word is a very much debated subject. I do not think it is possible to really have this discussion with someone without them being willing to accept the truth and doing some very important study. I know what I believe and why. I have studied the issue and would be happy to have this discussion but the back and forth of a forum is probably not the place. Let me know if you would care to dig deeper into this issue. If you are truely seeking to know then I would be more than willing to have this discussion with you via e-mail (loumarion(at)aol(dot)com). As a note – remember Satan is the author of confusion, if there is confusion in an issue (Bible Version – Faith / Works) he is probably close to the center of the discord.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen Roberts
avatar
Farthest_Outpost: Post 189a:
As an alternative, barry sees a bear eat dave. Then the bear eats mike, then the bear eats chris, then barry comes to the conclusion that bears are carnivores and runs like crazy"
/Post
Incorrect, If that were true (to use your bear example) then bears would probably be singing Kum-bah-yah before one was observed to eat mike.

Would you mind re-explaining this? I don't get your point. Are you saying that the bear would be too full to eat mike? I forgot to say that Dave's a midget, he's sort of like an entree.
avatar
Farthest_Outpost: Post 189b:
"Exactly, teaching any of that stuff outside of philosophy is counterproductive. Science is about science and nothing else."
well I have found that athiests/pluralists/secularists/ect. tend to be pretty pushy when it comes to their beliefs (not saying you are in this case but a lot of them here are) (ironic, if they really believed in a pluralistic stance)

Well I've not been in a generalist school for a long time but when I was, if someone made the assertion that god was responsible for something, they'd be asked to document a hypothesis and come up with a testing regimen to prove or disprove it. None of my teachers would ever have started a class with a lecture about how god is a fantasy and if they did, they'd have probably been disciplined for wasting class time. Now if they were asked to teach creationism as depicted from a single unverifiable source as an equal science to the evolutionary model which has grown up out of centuries of methodical and verifiable analysis THEN the discussion would have gotten pretty heated.
avatar
akwater: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen Roberts

Or How many gods do you not believe in?
Post edited April 18, 2010 by Aliasalpha

A lot... I was born Jewish, raised Roman Cath/Russian Ortho/Native American(Eskimo and Aleut and Inupiaq), started University at a big LDS school finished my undergrad at a Jesuit University, then now working/teaching in an Islamic country, and when I am not here I visit Buddhist/ Tao/ Jainism countries.
Oh and I am currently working on a masters from a Jesuit School......
Do I believe in the same g-d as everyone else... nah... do I pray to it? not really... however, could there be one maybe....
Edit... not trying to fan the flames...
Post edited April 18, 2010 by akwater
avatar
akwater: ....

Now with naming all these religions you've reminded me of this.
EDIT> wrong link
Post edited April 18, 2010 by klaymen