I too have enjoyed our discussion (although no games tonight) I think this is way more important. If you ever want to hear what God would have you do about youe sin let me know and we can discuss it further. If you are interested to work it out on your own I would suggest reading the books of John and Acts as a good starting point. See you around the forums.

I was planning to read the Bible anyways, I figured I can't really actually discuss or question anything without reading the other side. Haha.

Can you see the paradox there? A few posts earlier you were talking about free will and then here you are saying we can't use it to question something that is more than a little weird (and by "more than a little weird", I mean "batshit crazy psycho") because we don't have the right to question.

Be careful of the version you pick, there's numerous versions out there and a lot of them have been rewritten to help hide the fact that the character they depict is a psychotic child killer

Yeah, from a properly sceptical position it's naive to just go and read "The Bible" without paying attention to what's included and how it's been changed over the years. Make no mistake, the Bible you'd go out and buy at the store (any version) is a MODERN book in its compilation and translation and does not carry the weight and authority of thousands of years' tradition behind it as many would have you believe.
At the very outside, the Authorized King James version is the oldest Bible text you're likely to find, and that only dates back to 1611. Any other English translation you'll find will be much newer than that, sometimes with quite substantial changes to key parts of the text. Most versions commonly available today were first compiled in the last 50 years, often to address a perceived shortcoming in existing versions or to fit a specific purpose. Even ones that claim to faithfully translate the "original scriptures" are suspect, given that there's no universal agreement on what the quoted phrase actually means.

A mate of mine speaks highly of www.biblegateway.com, it can show the different versions of each book & verse

So... what your saying is I go kill someone say 6 million people it is cool because it was G-Ds plan to allow it to happen..... Sorry everyone that died in the holocost, it was g-ds will...?
Or the killing fields of Pol Pot, or Stalin's Gulag. You all died for a reason, no worries you *Might* have done horrendous evil.... Er wait.... The United States does not kill people based on what they might have done just what they have been convicted of.... crap we have that backwords.... gotta be more fundamental kill everyone because they *COULD* do evil?
It could be time for them to be called to Heavan...
Or If anyone tries to kill you, it must be g-ds will that you die?
Alrighty I'll go inform the troops on my base to instead of disarming IED's to just set em off with no protection and if it is G-Ds will they live they will remain alive......
It seem's funny that the crusades were fought for such a pacifist religion....
And again on the bible thing, there is more then one version, depending on who you listen to, there is *no* universal bible, Prods disagree with the Vatician, and the Luthers, and everyone else, I mean there is how many segments of faith that claim to be Christian? Which one is the correct faith? Are we saved by works, or faith alone?
Just wondering Lou....
What is your stance on the Terry Schivo incident? The one about the woman who had been in a vegatative state.....
Gays? Should they be allowed to marry? Again... Some faiths openly accept gays, and some well... call for violance.
Hospice Care? Some faiths are against the right to die movement, some are for it.
Medical care? Some faiths do not allow medical care seeing as G-d will either call you or will not.
The Poor? Some faiths go out of their way to try and help the poor while others point to aspects of the bible that say a man should provide by himself and only the wicked tainted by satan have issues.
Touching little boys? Obviously... one faith really likes altar boys.... and I think most people are against it...
Helping Hitler come to power and other various ruthless leaders.... The bishop in Germany at the time of Hitlers rise to power helped support moneitarily, and garner support from the church, JP2 apoligized for it....But there were other crazy people the church helped support.
These are issues the church, or various churches have taken upon them as causes, both for and against on each side of the coin. So........... What is the true word of g-d? The books left out of the bible of which there are ALOT? Something in the mix?
As you said Man is Sin.... It was also man who wrote, transcribed, translated, and interpeted what they belived to be the word of g-d....... By your account the only one without sin was Jesus, so Mark, John, Luke and Mathew, everyone in the bible other then the one guy who did not write anything down is sinful. So... We can not trust those with sin because they could be agents of satan yet we should trust the religous people who like to touch young boys? (correct me if I am wrong but isn't touching young boys both a sin and against the law *in most countries*?)

Its real easy to throw out these very important questions one after the other, but it is a very different thing to answer each and every one in an accurate manner. Given some time I will do my best. However, I would suggest that you stop looking toward organized religion - which has done more harm in the name of God than good - and find out for yourself what he has to say on these and other issues. It was God who wrote the Bible using man as his instrument: 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It is God who has preserved his word down thru the ages to all people: Psalms 12:6&7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. and they are to be used by use for our daily living: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - If you truly are looking for the answers to your questions then do the work and find them out. If you are only engaging in the discussion to cast doubt and have a gotcha moment, than I would suggest not engaging at all. I will take some to to put answers to your questions together as best I can and get back to you soon.

Perhaps I should Clarify, I mean there is no magic insturment that humanity can conjure to find God.
Ok quick quiz to help push my point across, where does information come from?
So is Atheism/Secularisim, Of course this is also a struggle between Pluralism/Realitivism and those that believe that there is an absolute truth
I know, I dont cuss...

here is a good site for nearly any theological question you have
http://www.gotquestions.org/

Observation of stimulii external to the organism in question long enough to determine a pattern, thinking of a hypothesis to explain the patterns and then devising experiments to prove or disprove it.
The geocentric view is an ideal example, for centuries it was assumed that earth was the centre of the universe which eventually became taught as fact. Then a succession of clever, observant and brave people examined the skies and began charting the passage of the stars, eventually figuring out that it's simply impossible that they rotated around the world. They developed calculations to explain it and discovered that we're the ones that are moving, justifying and defending this evidence against the forces of the status quo who denied it based on a lack of understanding or willful ignorance
As an alternative, barry sees a bear eat dave. Then the bear eats mike, then the bear eats chris, then barry comes to the conclusion that bears are carnivores and runs like crazy
Exactly, teaching any of that stuff outside of philosophy is counterproductive. Science is about science and nothing else.

See my answer to your Biblical question above. It is not the work of man but of God using man as his instrument and He is the one responsible for taking care of it. He surely can not expect us to believe him and follow his word if we do not have it.
I really do not see your point in regards to the Holocaust - I think you are somewhat confused on the issue spoken of here. No where in the Book of Job does it ever mention that man killed anyone. God did not tell someone it was OK to kill or anything of this nature. God allowed Satan – a very powerful created angelic being – to do what he did with some very strict restrictions on what he could or could not do. I don’t think it is reasonable to extract from this specific situation that you can use the excuse that God told you to kill someone. Hitler’s Holocost, Pol Pot’s Killing fields, and Stalin’s Gulag have no evidence of being carried out in the name of God – you are throwing up a straw man here.
I gave three “possibilities” and prefaced this by saying I do not know or have all the answers. You really need to read my post without your prejudiced view. I did not say they were evil or deserved to die. Lets see how Job responded to the whole situation:
Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Given Job's response we can conclude he did not hold God responsible for the tragic things happening in his life and therefore I will not say that God is responsible either. I am not sure I could have responded in this way .

You misunderstand - we can certainly honestly question why things happen but as a created being we really should be careful of shaking our fists at God and blaming him.

Heh, it seems Alpha Centauri is quite the source for quotes regardless of the topic.

Ok so each of the Bible's created, including the Satanic Bible are g-d's inspired word? Like I said, Which bible? which Version? You say the bible like there is only one.......
Hitler was raised Catholic (one of those Apostolic churches...) He had deep Faith... Final Solution of the Jewish Question...Hitler once stated, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany"......Konrad Heiden, A History of National Socialism.
Pol Pot and Stalin both understood the power of religion, Pol Pot studied Buddism for a year, then studied at Catholic schools for another 8 years.
Stalin and Hitler both wanted to become Priests.... which um... correct me if I am wrong, would mean they belived in g-d. Which, if g-d spoke to them, (can't prove or disprove g-d spoke to them as Moses claimed he had been talked to g-d and after all Moses is a man, and fallable heck back in the Torah/Old Testiment G-d had people wiped of the earth several times over, Flood, Tower of Babel, Soddom and Gomora, Plagues, Passover, um.... im sure there is more in which g-d wiped the slate clean and yet when Hitler tried to do the same people wonder where he might have got the inspiration)
Pol Pot wanted to become a monk.....
Again... Why did g-d Take 1400+ YEARS to get the offical seal of approval on the bible?
The last book in the bible was written around 70 to 100 AD being Revelation.....So Why on g-ds green earth did it take 1400+ years for g-d to inspire man to get his stuff together and put it together. And even still some Faiths do not accept some books in the Bible... some faiths have more books.... So again... Which Bible? There is not only one....
I mean at least the Torah and Talmud were generally accepted by ALL Jews, and again, inspired word of g-d and all, because if the old testiment is also in the bible then isnt it by the same notion the same inspired word of g-d that the new testiment is?
Even Islam has their one Qur'an which regardless of the differances between Sunni and Shi'a had their book together about 1000 years before the Bible had the seal of approval.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
(not changing g-d to g-d as that is Vatican... )
A definitive list of books to use for the Bible did not come from an Ecumenical Council until the Council of Trent (1545–1563).............. So......... again.... why did it take 1500 years for G-d to finally inspire man to come to some form of agreement and even then half the groups STILL did not agree...
So............ again I will ask.... which Bible.... is the inspired word of G-d? The Qur'an? The Torah? The King James Version of the Bible? NIV? The New King James Version? Contempary English version? The New Living Translation? American Standard Version? Today's New International Version?
Luther, basing his action on dogmatic reasons and the judgment of antiquity, had discarded Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revaltion as altogether uncanonical....
Zwingli, (reformation) Could not see revaltion in a biblical book....
There were more people questioning lines from the bloody sweat of Jesus in Luke...
Is it because the Church said it is the inspired words of G-d that it is the case? Because countless faiths disagree with you there...
Just because I you say it is the inspired word of G-d does not mean it is the case, most groups can not even agree on what is the inspired word of g-d vs what is not....

I thought communists were against religion. The opiate of the masses etc. Wasn't Stalin deeply against religion?

From Inside the Kremlin's Cold War: From Stalin to Khrushchev. pp. 4. Zubok and Pleshakov further state, "Many would later note, however, that his works were influenced by a distinctly Biblical style" and "his atheism remained rooted in some vague idea of a God of nature."
Stalin wasnt opposed to religion as a whole he wanted everyone to follow him blindly much like Germany followed Hitler.... Communism does not automatically assume atheism, just like Capitialism does not assume Christian faith... There are thesitic socialists and communists just as there are atheist capitalists.
He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Which.... is not exactly something a Capitalist would say, however a Communist might... or a Socialist...Nothing in the bible suggests Captialism is the right way.....
"Communism begins where atheism begins, but atheism is at the outset still far from being communism; indeed it is still for the most part an abstraction." Karl Marx....
However on paper, Communism is the distro of wealth to the poor and down trodden. Which again Jesus was about.
Communism is an old theory. Wealth is shared according to need. From Plato to Sir Thomas More, to Stalin, Lenin, Marx. The older versions the more utopian versions of Plato the Republic.....
In the Middle Ages communism was used, by several heretical sects. In this they professed to imitate the example of the primitive Christians. Their communism was religious rather than economic like Palto's. Al la Anabaptists, Calvinistis, Church of the free spirt, and others.
The Shakers and Quakers both hold communisitic dogma even though they are deeply religous.
Sure Stalin and other leaders who claim atheism and kill theists might be true atheists but it can be argued that they did not want compeition.... I mean, the Pontif has how much power and held how much power over how many countries for how long? I can totally understand a leader being pissy at g-d and trying to do away with a religion because it is a power he can not amass...
Sure Stalin made the joke about the Pope's divisions of troops and all... but, really.... who wouldnt be scared of a group who throughout history has made nations crumble and fall time and time again, through sure "Faith". Heck now the Pope might get ARRESTED if he goes to the UK and charged with Crimes against humanity.....if Stalin was to hear that.... man.... he would have a chuckle im sure... a group he was soooo afraid of might be getting it's leader thrown in Jail........