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I keep reading my thread. Please, keep it civilized. And keep mothers out of it, because this is like children in kindergarden. You don't like? You disagree? By all means, fine by me! Write down your opinion, drop a line or two caring to elaborate on it, and let the conversation go on. Nobody forced anyone to participate anywhere they do not like.

Also, it is perfectly fine by me, if some people feel like paying more money for less rights, and even be happy by doing so, while defending their source on top of that! I respect that, i did NOT start calling them names like sheeple or anything of sorts! So please, once again, participate on equal grounds and mutual respect in the conversation.
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amok: Thank you for that analogy. Before I thought it was simple - Valve do not force DRM free on publishers as they do not care about DRM or the DRM free principle, but let it be up to the various developers to decide for themselves. And I thought it was that simple.

Now I realise it was because they want to steal cars and sell you things that break down after warranty expires. Thank you very much for making it much clearer and ensuring that no one is ever going to muddle the waters again. What would we have done without these analogies. I would have been very confused.
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timppu: The first problem seems to be that you don't know what the term analogy means. That's why you apparently thought I had claimed Valve is stealing cars or making things break after warranty. I hadn't.

After you have checked Wikipedia what the term means, next you could try to explain why you feel they are flawed analogies, in case you still disagree with them.

Also, I have hard time believing that Valve is not aware e.g. what 3rd party DRM different publishers are using in their games on Valve's own service, in case that is what you were suggesting. After all, Valve has earlier made a heart-breaking article on how it tries to persuade the publishers not to e.g. use 3rd party DRM on their Steam games (I'll have to see if I still have a link to that article). Whether that was just cheap talk or not, I don't know, but I guess many would have preferred if Valve had been more strict about it (e.g. those Steam users who say they refuse to buy Steam games that have 3rd party DRM with installation caps and such, and are miffed when finding out about it only after purchase).

Anyway, if what you say is true and Valve doesn't care about DRM, then I guess they have stopped trying to convince publishers not to use 3rd party DRM on top of Steam DRM. If they ever really did that to begin with.
nah, I just don't think there is any point creating an analogy to 'make things easier to comprehend' when the issue is really very straightforward. But an analogy can be well used to turn anything to your point if you want to, if you do not like what it is to start with.

edit: "not care about DRM" means "not care whether a game is DRM free or not, or how much DRM there is" but leave it to the publishers. Sorry, should have made it clearer and easy to understand. Maybe I should have have used an analogy. You see, there once was this man who had a garden and he let other people use it to grow their own fruit there, and he did not care whether they used fertilisers on their fruit trees or not. There was also another man somewhere who did the same but he cared much about use of fertilisers, that is he only allowed people to grow fruit trees if they did not use any fertilisers at all. So the first man let everyone grow their trees in his garden, he did not care, while the second only let people who shared his philosophy do so. And the first man was also stealing cars every other Saturday.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by amok
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: I keep reading my thread. Please, keep it civilized. And keep mothers out of it, because this is like children in kindergarden. You don't like? You disagree? By all means, fine by me! Write down your opinion, drop a line or two caring to elaborate on it, and let the conversation go on. Nobody forced anyone to participate anywhere they do not like.

Also, it is perfectly fine by me, if some people feel like paying more money for less rights, and even be happy by doing so, while defending their source on top of that! I respect that, i did NOT start calling them names like sheeple or anything of sorts! So please, once again, participate on equal grounds and mutual respect in the conversation.
A kindergarden is presumably where someone keeps their chocolate eggs?

Also I own the Mother comment: "Don't hide behind your mother". Sorry, what are you trying to twist my intentions as being exactly?
Post edited December 28, 2013 by Egotomb
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Leroux: snip

I think for many people it's also a plus that you can comfortably install and uninstall games without any knowledge of Windows Explorer, the structure of your harddisk or the Control Panel,

snip
Putting the Steam vs GOG discussion and games aside - isn't such a model promoting PC/ tech illiteracy, at least to some extend? Like if I get used to using my PC and running apps without learning anything about my PC and how my OS works (at least to some degree) wouldn't I be (completely) lost (i.e. have no clue where to start) when something doesn't work as expected? IMHO, some (basic) understanding and troubleshooting knowledge is useful and I always try to teach some basic and handy stuff to friends and family when they come to me with their desktop/ laptop issues.
And yes, I am aware that there are quite a lot of people that don't care to learn such stuff, just something your comment got me thinking about.
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amok: edit: "not care about DRM" means "not care whether a game is DRM free or not, or how much DRM there is" but leave it to the publishers. Sorry, should have made it clearer and easy to understand. Maybe I should have have used an analogy. You see, there once was this man who had a garden and he let other people use it to grow their own fruit there, and he did not care whether they used fertilisers on their fruit trees or not. There was also another man somewhere who did the same but he cared much about use of fertilisers, that is he only allowed people to grow fruit trees if they did not use any fertilisers at all. So the first man let everyone grow their trees in his garden, he did not care, while the second only let people who shared his philosophy do so. And the first man was also stealing cars every other Saturday.
Again you failed to understand the term "analogy".

Anyway, to point out the flaws in your analogy, I'll need to improve it a bit to better apply to the relationship that Steam and the game publishers have. (See, that is what you should have done too, if you felt my analogy was flawed.)

There is this gardener (Valve) who rents for money allotments in his garden for people (=game publishers) to grow fruits and stuff. He knows that some of his clients are using fertilizers that might be a bit questionable.

Later there is a big public outcry of this, and these subtenant gardeners are blamed for using questionable fertilizers (just like in this case game publishers are blamed for using DRM, e.g. SecuROM or GFWL on top of Steam DRM). Then someone points out that the gardener who rented the allotments to them was aware they were using such fertilizers, yet didn't put any restrictions on using them, like the other gardener did. So he feels part of the blame goes also to the gardener for allowing such practices by his subtenants.

But then a bunch of people who happen to like this "couldn't care less" gardener come out and say:

"No no no, you can't blame the landlord gardener! He didn't have a principle that would restrict using fertilizers in his rented gardens, and that makes it all fine and him immune to any accusations. But the subtenants can still be blamed because they were the ones actually using the fertilizers."

One of them also points out that if the gardener had put on such restrictions, most of the subtenants would have probably left, as if no one could possibly expect him to have restrictions that might in any way jeopardize his business, even as little as telling the subtenants to use only fertilizers which the gardener himself deems safe and acceptable.

I personally still feel the landlord gardener can be blamed for willingly allowing the subtenants to use any fertilizers (especially since he was aware of them using questionable fertilizers).

A completely different thing would if someone feels even the subtenants can't be blamed for anything, no matter what fertilizers they were using or not. Or, to take it back to the Steam + game publishers example, the game publishers (like Ubisoft) can't be blamed either for injecting third-party SecuROM etc. on the games they have on the Steam service, especially when many customers find out about them only afterwards. But that was not the case here, the original point was that the publishers/subtenants can still be blamed, even if Steam can't.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by timppu
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: Also, it is perfectly fine by me, if some people feel like paying more money for less rights, and even be happy by doing so, while defending their source on top of that! I respect that, i did NOT start calling them names like sheeple or anything of sorts! So please, once again, participate on equal grounds and mutual respect in the conversation.
Well this has made me laugh pretty hard. If it's fine by you, I would suggest you to keep quiet and stop provoking.

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timppu: Again you failed to understand the term "analogy".
It might be helpful to stop making analogies that are twisted to help your cause and instead discuss the issue at hand. Yup, would be nice if you did that one of these days.

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HypersomniacLive: ...
I get where you're going with it, but just... No. Tech illiterate people will just buy a console. Thanks to the Steam's approach, PCs actually became viable again.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by Fenixp
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timppu: Anyway, to point out the flaws in your analogy, I'll need to improve it a bit to better apply to the relationship that Steam and the game publishers have. (See, that is what you should have done too, if you felt my analogy was flawed.)
I did not feel it was flawed, as such, I felt it was utter pointless.

(and what FenixP said :))
Post edited December 28, 2013 by amok
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Fenixp: It might be helpful to stop making analogies that are twisted to help your cause and instead discuss the issue at hand. Yup, would be nice if you did that one of these days.
If you feel the analogy is flawed/twisted/whatever, it shouldn't be hard to point out how. Like I just did for amok's analogy.

After all, you also used an analogy earlier, by mentioning the brick and mortar stores. What was the reason again, to see if I am being consistent? Can I use analogies for the same purpose as you?

For what it's worth, I did start by discussing directly with the issue at hand (without any analogy), but I was greeted with arguments like "So? Valve doesn't have such a principle, so they can't be blamed for not having such a principle." (while at the same time the game publishers can still be blamed for the same practice in games they release on Valve's service). That makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you try to twist it. So, I used a couple of analogies for you folks to better understand why it is ludicrous statement, since you still seemed to think that not having a principle somehow elevates one above any kind of criticism. The analogies were merely to test whether you really believe that consistently.

And I still underscore: if you personally couldn't care less about what kind of DRM is included in different Steam games, it is understandable that you personally don't care about the Steam service provider not having such a principle. But for someone who cares about the DRM and blames the game publishers for using them, then it shouldn't be unthinkable to say that part of the blame goes also to the service provider who is willingly allowing such practices in his service.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by timppu
Fucking lol.Nice post OP.Completely unbiased and totally not one sided in all the arguments listed....
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timppu: Anyway, to point out the flaws in your analogy, I'll need to improve it a bit to better apply to the relationship that Steam and the game publishers have. (See, that is what you should have done too, if you felt my analogy was flawed.)
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amok: I did not feel it was flawed, as such, I felt it was utter pointless.
And I am sure you will refuse to say how exactly it was pointless. As said, if you feel I have a weak argument, it should be super easy to debunk it. Just saying "you are wrong" and not elaborating why one is wrong is not enough, other than to show that you don't want to agree with what someone else said. So noted, you don't want Valve to be blamed at all.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by timppu
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amok: I did not feel it was flawed, as such, I felt it was utter pointless.
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timppu: And I am sure you will refuse to say how exactly it was pointless. As said, if you feel I have a weak argument, it should be super easy to debunk it. Just saying "you are wrong" and not elaborating why one is wrong is not enough, other than to show that you don't want to agree with someone else said. So noted, you don't want Valve to be blamed at all.
it is pointless because the issue is clear, as I said before. the rest is all up to you and whatever goes on in your mind. You want to blame all retailers in the world, that is fine. But just say so and not try to make those fancy 'analogies' so we need to guess what you mean.
7: Never in one solid package? I guess these are just a figment of my imagination then...

http://store.steampowered.com/app/2028016/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/47810/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/901566/
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timppu: And I am sure you will refuse to say how exactly it was pointless. As said, if you feel I have a weak argument, it should be super easy to debunk it. Just saying "you are wrong" and not elaborating why one is wrong is not enough, other than to show that you don't want to agree with someone else said. So noted, you don't want Valve to be blamed at all.
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amok: it is pointless because the issue is clear, as I said before. the rest is all up to you and whatever goes on in your mind. You want to blame all retailers in the world, that is fine. But just say so and not try to make those fancy 'analogies' so we need to guess what you mean.
I already explained what I mean, e.g. here:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/steam_vs_gog_with_examples_and_comparison/post68

Or heck, already in my first message in this thread: http://www.gog.com/forum/general/steam_vs_gog_with_examples_and_comparison/post43

So a simple question to you too: does the fact that someone doesn't have a principle, elevate one above any criticism concerning the (lack of that) principle?

Because that is exactly what the claim was, with which I disagreed.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by timppu
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amok: it is pointless because the issue is clear, as I said before. the rest is all up to you and whatever goes on in your mind. You want to blame all retailers in the world, that is fine. But just say so and not try to make those fancy 'analogies' so we need to guess what you mean.
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timppu: I already explained what I mean, e.g. here:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/steam_vs_gog_with_examples_and_comparison/post68

So a simple question to you too: does the fact that someone doesn't have a principle, elevate one above any criticism concerning the (lack of that) principle?

Because that is exactly what the claim was, with which I disagreed.
Yes, and same way - not care about DRM means just that - not care about DRM.
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timppu: By the way, I find it funny how many Steam proponents flock into this discussion in order to lecture the OP about him not finding any negatives on GOG's actions, and positives on Valve's actions... yet at the same time they are clearly themselves unable to see anything negative in any of Valve's actions. Like, pretending that Valve can't be blamed for allowing (even 3rd party) DRM on Steam games on their own service.
Well said :)
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Egotomb: I have noticed in my years here that there are two types of anti-DRM proponents. There are those that are genuinely politically or morally against it, they have my respect even if I'm much more relaxed about the whole thing personally. Then there's the other type that are in it for narcissistic reasons. It takes a special skill to wind a community up that otherwise has a lot in common.
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timppu: Then there are the third type who are against it for pragmatic reasons, for example me.

As for the Steam-proponents, I've noticed a few who seem to here just to stir trouble (that's why I call the trolls). They don't even seem to ever buy any GOG games (at least they never mention it, while they do always mention here what they have bought from other services), all they ever seem to do here on GOG forums is to complain about GOG, about GOG being DRM-free, and promoting other stores (mainly Steam of course).

I never quite figured out what keeps them in these forums they seem to hate so much, but maybe it is, as you said, for narcissistic reasons.

EDIT: Also about the "a lot in common" part, I think different people are on GOG for different reasons. Some (of those who actually buy games from GOG) are here for older games and possibly don't care about DRM, some (like me) are more interested in DRM-free part, and maybe even wish to see more new games on the GOG service, etc. (while many in the first group are maybe even against the newer releases appearing on GOG). And so on and so forth. So no, I don't personally see this as a monolithic "community".
Also well said :). Pretty much my opinion as well.
Post edited December 28, 2013 by nijuu