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Fenixp: ?
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227: That wasn't a criticism directed toward all early access games, as demonstrated by the three games I specifically named after the part you quoted to explain what I meant by scams. Sorry it that was unclear.

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Fenixp: Look, what I'm worried here is the effect of outcries like these on overal refusal policies of online retailers, because I firmly believe they should keep this right. For the sake of Valve? Not specifically, for the sake of all online stores, for them to be capable of refusing any given product they don't find comfortable selling, and that includes GOG.
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227: That's fair, but the same criticism can't be levied at GOG because they actually refuse games for a variety of reasons that are always shrouded in mystery. Sure, there are a few terrible games here, but there's nowhere near the amount of shovelware and number of unplayable games that grace Steam, GamersGate, and other places that stock "junk" games. My point is only that you have to occasionally exercise that right to refuse or else risk having future refusal appear as censorship when juxtaposed with that hands-off history.

I suppose that bit about carrying on with your life means that you're done with this bit of back-and-forth, though. Best wishes with said life, and may we find something else to argue about again soon in the near future.
Refusing to sell a game because the game is low quality or won't sell enough copies to be worthwhile is different than taking part in censorship. Refusing to sell a game because an agreement couldn't be made with the publisher is different than taking part in censorship. Censorship is abusing your power, as a store to try to become the thought police or bending over and supporting the thought police like a cowardly little worm.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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227: I suppose that bit about carrying on with your life means that you're done with this bit of back-and-forth, though. Best wishes with said life, and may we find something else to argue about again soon in the near future.
Oh I absolutely will :-P I am now quite interested in Steam's refusal policies in the past tho - since there aren't many games which has gathered quite as much notoriety as Hatered, we also have no clue which other games were refused from the service for the most part, now that Valve has more or less opened the floodgates. I do think they draw the line at overt pornography, but aside from that... Oh well.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by Fenixp
Gaming Hypocrisy.
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227: Have Netflix or Blockbuster ever been in legal trouble for selling/renting violent movies? Is there any precedent for this whatsoever?
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Fenixp: Does it matter? Any given store has the right to refuse selling any given product. Hell, GOG has opted to refuse to sell a fair few, including games like Thomas was Alone. It feels a little hypocritical to criticize Steam for what GOG has been doing all the time (and yes, GOG too has an admission system in form of wishlist, just not automated)
There was a pricing problem for Thomas, they didn't refuse to sell the game because of content.
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monkeydelarge: Refusing to sell a game because the game is low quality or won't sell enough copies to be worthwhile is different than taking part in censorship. Refusing to sell a game because an agreement couldn't be made with the publisher is different than taking part in censorship. Censorship is abusing your power, as a store to try to become the thought police or bending over and supporting the thought police like a cowardly little worm.
I don't know about "censorship" and such, but I'm not too sure what Steam is doing here is even MORALLY wrong.

I remember reading a while back about some Christian baker/cake-maker in the UK that refused to design/ bake a cake for some function promoting some LGBT advocacy group because they disagreed with their agenda/beliefs. The situation is somewhat analogous: someone is requested to put resources (baking materials, or server space and bandwidth and advertising) to advance a cause that you don't agree with (irrespective of whether that cause is right or wrong), and they say "No thanks, we don't want to". Why SHOULD they have to provide resources for something they don't wish to promote?

Now see, looking at it like that gave me a new perspective. Steam doesn't care about censorship or being the thought police. Why would it? Being an amorphous company, rather than (for example) a Christian husband-wife baker team, It probably doesn't even have a "moral code" that it wishes to abide by and reject things that don't follow it. Steam cares about the bottom dollar, and how much money it will earn, and it seems they decided that the promoting/hosting/distributing a game that's main selling point so far seems to be how edgy and violent it will be, and probably won't sell all that many copies, and probably result in negative blowback for steam (resulting in possibly less use of the platform over-all) wasn't worth it- a reasoning you outlined as being different than censorship.
Steam has many games that I'd say are more violent and edgy and disturbing, but those probably didn't make their entire marketing campaign about that, so those games flew under the radar, and nobody cared (least of all steam).

The game, if/when released, would probably still be available loads of places, just not steam. Seeing as steam has something of a monopoly on PC digital distribution, one may think that's a bit unfair, but I'm not sure how wrong it is, and I'm not sure it constitutes censorship either.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by babark
Needs moar rectal rehydration.
According to British lawyer and writer Philippe Sands, Jack Bauer—played by Kiefer Sutherland—was an inspiration at early "brainstorming meetings" of military officials at Guantanamo in September of 2002. Diane Beaver, the staff judge advocate general who gave legal approval to 18 controversial new interrogation techniques including water-boarding, sexual humiliation, and terrorizing prisoners with dogs, told Sands that Bauer "gave people lots of ideas." Michael Chertoff, the homeland-security chief, once gushed in a panel discussion on 24 organized by the Heritage Foundation that the show"reflects real life."
John Yoo, the former Justice Department lawyer who produced the so-called torture memos—simultaneously redefining both the laws of torture and logic—cites Bauer in his book War by Other Means. "What if, as the popular Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" Even Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, speaking in Canada last summer, shows a gift for this casual toggling between television and the Constitution. "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles. … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives," Scalia said. "Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?"
lol guise its just a game
As I said in another topic, Valve don't remove controversial big publishers' games. But don't hesitate to do so for small developers.
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monkeydelarge: Refusing to sell a game because the game is low quality or won't sell enough copies to be worthwhile is different than taking part in censorship. Refusing to sell a game because an agreement couldn't be made with the publisher is different than taking part in censorship. Censorship is abusing your power, as a store to try to become the thought police or bending over and supporting the thought police like a cowardly little worm.
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babark: I don't know about "censorship" and such, but I'm not too sure what Steam is doing here is even MORALLY wrong.

I remember reading a while back about some Christian baker/cake-maker in the UK that refused to design/ bake a cake for some function promoting some LGBT advocacy group because they disagreed with their agenda/beliefs. The situation is somewhat analogous: someone is requested to put resources (baking materials, or server space and bandwidth and advertising) to advance a cause that you don't agree with (irrespective of whether that cause is right or wrong), and they say "No thanks, we don't want to". Why SHOULD they have to provide resources for something they don't wish to promote?

Now see, looking at it like that gave me a new perspective. Steam doesn't care about censorship or being the thought police. Why would it? Being an amorphous company, rather than (for example) a Christian husband-wife baker team, It probably doesn't even have a "moral code" that it wishes to abide by and reject things that don't follow it. Steam cares about the bottom dollar, and how much money it will earn, and it seems they decided that the promoting/hosting/distributing a game that's main selling point so far seems to be how edgy and violent it will be, and probably won't sell all that many copies, and probably result in negative blowback for steam (resulting in possibly less use of the platform over-all) wasn't worth it- a reasoning you outlined as being different than censorship.
Steam has many games that I'd say are more violent and edgy and disturbing, but those probably didn't make their entire marketing campaign about that, so those games flew under the radar, and nobody cared (least of all steam).

The game, if/when released, would probably still be available loads of places, just not steam. Seeing as steam has something of a monopoly on PC digital distribution, one may think that's a bit unfair, but I'm not sure how wrong it is, and I'm not sure it constitutes censorship either.
There is a difference between Steam and a Christian bakery. A Christian bakery is not capable of censorship because what they sell is cake. Just cake. So by refusing to make a cake for a cause they don't agree with, they aren't supporting censorship. But I still think what they did, makes them asshats. I've haven't put much though into this so maybe I could be wrong. Maybe this Christian bakery is guilty of censorship.

"Why SHOULD they have to provide resources for something they don't wish to promote?"
Because if they don't, they are taking part in censorship and censorship is evil. If they don't want to promote a product they don't like, they can just sell the product but not advertise it. Yes, I know for those stores, it's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. But that's life. If I became the owner of Walmart or Steam or whatever, I would sell a game made by Anita Sarkeesian(even though I think she is an evil man hater) if she made a game because if I don't, I'd be supporting censorship and that is something 1000 times worse.

I don't care what Steam is and what they want. They are still taking part in censorship and it is wrong.

"and probably won't sell all that many copies, and probably result in negative blowback for steam wasn't worth it."
I highly doubt this. First of all, the blowback will be nothing more than a bunch of people whining at forums and on blogs. I highly doubt these people will boycott Steam if Steam started selling Hatred. And if they did, no loss there because most of these people aren't even real gamers. And if Hatred was available through Steam, they'd probably sell many copies because a lot of people see that Hatred is just a harmless game(and a symbol). And a lot of people can handle violence in video games. I should also point out that Hatred has already received tons of free advertisement from those who are trying to stop the spread of the game. And because the game has become so controversial, there are going to be people buying the game, just to experience something controversial.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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Huinehtar: As I said in another topic, Valve don't remove controversial big publishers' games. But don't hesitate to do so for small developers.
Indies are the future... as soon as they make us more money than AAAs.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by realkman666
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Huinehtar: As I said in another topic, Valve don't remove controversial big publishers' games. But don't hesitate to do so for small developers.
Name one game as controversial as Hatered from big publishers. Big publishers don't take chances you know, they take the controversy just so far so it serves as advertisment, but they never go over board. The most similar case to Hatred is probably Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II and the airport bit, but even then, you didn't actually have to do anything and the entirety of the game didn't revolve around it.

Then thre's another point to this discussion, and that being accountability - when it comes to big publishers, people are going to jump on them for introducing the controversy. When Steam sells small indie games, it's Steam who's the big publisher - they take all the shit if something bad goes down.
Post edited December 16, 2014 by Fenixp
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Fenixp: The most similar case to Hatred is probably Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II and the airport bit, but even then, you didn't actually have to do anything and the entirety of the game didn't revolve around it.
Not sure if Manhunt is closer or not, but they 10 and 7 years old respectively.
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JMich: Not sure if Manhunt is closer or not, but they 10 and 7 years old respectively.
And then there's Postal, obviously. Still, originally released by an entirely different publishers, their controversy pretty much forgotten.
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Fenixp: The most similar case to Hatred is probably Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II and the airport bit, but even then, you didn't actually have to do anything and the entirety of the game didn't revolve around it.
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JMich: Not sure if Manhunt is closer or not, but they 10 and 7 years old respectively.
In Manhunt, you kill people considered "bad" by society so the game is very PC even though the violence in the game is too much for many people.
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JMich: Not sure if Manhunt is closer or not, but they 10 and 7 years old respectively.
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Fenixp: And then there's Postal, obviously. Still, originally released by an entirely different publishers, their controversy pretty much forgotten.
In Postal, they made it clear that the main character is insane. In Hatred, he seems very sane. Just without empathy, morals and full of hate. Hatred is the first of it's kind. Hatred is progress.... And unfortunately, whenever there is progress, religious fanatics try to stop it...
Post edited December 16, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Well, I could name many bloodfest games, only accepted in the names of "survival horror" and "zombies games".

Killing zombies are just killing human people, the only difference is that they don't try to flee.
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monkeydelarge: If they(GOG) refused to sell those games because they thought the content of those games is objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient, then yes. But did they refuse to sell those games because the games made them or other people butt hurt? I don't think so.
I don't think that's what Steam does here. They didn't pull the game, because they they thought it might be harmful (in a sense that it would turn people into killing machines) or politically incorrect. They probably pulled it, because they thought it would be bad PR to sell it and that it might seriously harm their business. It has nothing to do with censorship, it's a business decision.