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General discussion (archive)Steam has failed you, yet again.(355 posts)(355 posts)
(355 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 29, 2009
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Crassmaster: ...so?
Does it require a client to access your game? Yes.
Does it require use of that client to path or update your game? Yes.
Can it be backed up in any way on a disc or your hard drive to be used outside of the client? No.
Guess what, that still equals DRM. Just the fact that you don't need it running to play your game doesn't change that fact.
Do I personally have an issue with that? No. I use Impulse, and Steam, Direct2Drive, Gamersgate, GoG, etc. I just become annoyed when people try to pretend that Impulse is not a form of DRM. It is. Doesn't make it evil, but it is.

Wrong.
You must consider a CD check as a form of DRM.
Also, is DRM-free music purchased via iTunes actually loaded with DRM because you require iTunes to acquire it? Once you download the music, you never have to open iTunes again. The same goes for Impulse. Yes, if you wish to patch it, you must run Impulse. However, that is your choice. You are free to play your game with Impulse uninstalled.
How can you consider something to be DRM if the so-called DRM can be removed and the software still functions?
Posted November 29, 2009
I find that DRM is NOT copy protection. Two different things. Copy protections are like CD keys, and other non-harmful, "passive" kinds of things. DRM however is something that actively calls somewhere or does something to verify whether the game is legit or not.
That's what I think.
Posted November 29, 2009
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melchiz: How can you consider something to be DRM if the so-called DRM can be removed and the software still functions?

In that case, TAGES, SecuROM, Steam, StarForce, Uniloc and all the other DRM systems aren't DRM as they can be bypassed with your game still working.
Posted November 29, 2009
Just checked the Spore section since it's on the early holiday sale.
Spore: 19,99
Creepy&Cute pack: 4,99
Galactic Adventures: 9,99
------------------------------------
Subtotal: 34,97
Buy Spore Complete Pack (all 3 items): 69,97
:)
Posted November 29, 2009
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bansama: In that case, TAGES, SecuROM, Steam, StarForce, Uniloc and all the other DRM systems aren't DRM as they can be bypassed with your game still working.

Cracked? Yes. By that line of reasoning, DRM isn't DRM because it can be circumvented with hacks.
The systems you mention must be in place for a game to function properly, unless the user finds a workaround. Uninstalling Impulse is a not a workaround. It is legal and normal use. Uninstalling SecuROM, with the official uninstaller, will cause any installed SecuROM-enabled games to stop working. Uninstalling Steam will prevent the user from accessing his games.
That is a significant difference.
Please demonstrate how Impulse itself is DRM before you support a claim that it is such.
Posted November 29, 2009
I don't even know what this thread is about anymore
Posted November 29, 2009
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CaptainGyro: I don't even know what this thread is about anymore

Just enjoy the ride!
Posted November 29, 2009
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Siannah: Just checked the Spore section since it's on the early holiday sale.
Spore: 19,99
Creepy&Cute pack: 4,99
Galactic Adventures: 9,99
------------------------------------
Subtotal: 34,97
Buy Spore Complete Pack (all 3 items): 69,97
:)

I find this very humorous. Steam isn't really known for consistent pricing.
Posted November 29, 2009
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bansama: In that case, TAGES, SecuROM, Steam, StarForce, Uniloc and all the other DRM systems aren't DRM as they can be bypassed with your game still working.
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melchiz: Cracked? Yes. By that line of reasoning, DRM isn't DRM because it can be circumvented with hacks.
The systems you mention must be in place for a game to function properly, unless the user finds a workaround. Uninstalling Impulse is a not a workaround. It is legal and normal use. Uninstalling SecuROM, with the official uninstaller, will cause any installed SecuROM-enabled games to stop working. Uninstalling Steam will prevent the user from accessing his games.
That is a significant difference.
Please demonstrate how Impulse itself is DRM before you support a claim that it is such.

At the moment Impulse is DRM. I'd have it over Steam, but at the moment it's the only vehicle for installing and activating some games. E.g. my digital download of Sins of a Solar Empire will only work if I install Impulse, input my email and password, and restore my Sins archive, as the archive installer you can make as backup is only installable with Impulse. I did tinker with it enough to see it's a 7zip archive, but couldn't figure how to install it standalone. From what I've read, Stardock are working on making their games non-Impulse reliant for those who'd rather not install it.
Of course it's not comparable to Securom, Starforce etc but at the moment it is DRM lite, better than any other DRM and Steam but worse than EA 's download manager because the EADM doesn't need to be installed if you reinstall EADM downloaded (Securom'd) games. Maybe it's different for third party games, but it's definitely part of the GOO DRM for Stardock games.
Post edited November 29, 2009 by Lucibel
Posted November 29, 2009
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bansama: In that case, TAGES, SecuROM, Steam, StarForce, Uniloc and all the other DRM systems aren't DRM as they can be bypassed with your game still working.
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melchiz: Cracked? Yes. By that line of reasoning, DRM isn't DRM because it can be circumvented with hacks.
The systems you mention must be in place for a game to function properly, unless the user finds a workaround. Uninstalling Impulse is a not a workaround. It is legal and normal use. Uninstalling SecuROM, with the official uninstaller, will cause any installed SecuROM-enabled games to stop working. Uninstalling Steam will prevent the user from accessing his games.
That is a significant difference.
Please demonstrate how Impulse itself is DRM before you support a claim that it is such.

You're TOTALLY some sort of Stardock shill, aren't you? I have seen this much Impulse love even from Stardock themselves.
Posted November 29, 2009
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Lucibel: At the moment Impulse is DRM. I'd have it over Steam, but at the moment it's the only vehicle for installing and activating some games. E.g. my digital download of Sins of a Solar Empire will only work if I install Impulse, input my email and password, and restore my Sins archive, as the archive installer you can make as backup is only installable with Impulse. I did tinker with it enough to see it's a 7zip archive, but couldn't figure how to install it standalone. From what I've read, Stardock are working on making their games non-Impulse reliant for those who'd rather not install it.
Of course it's not comparable to Securom, Starforce etc but at the moment it is DRM lite, better than any other DRM and Steam but worse than EA 's download manager because the EADM doesn't need to be installed if you reinstall EADM downloaded (Securom'd) games. Maybe it's different for third party games, but it's definitely part of the GOO DRM for Stardock games.

I have trouble classifying it as DRM because technically, it is not DRM. GOO is DRM, albeit light and "friendly" DRM, but Impulse itself is not truly DRM. Steam is DRM and is intended to be such. Impulse is not designed to operate as a DRM platform, and it doesn't function as DRM.
Also, EADM is a download manager, with no added features. It is similar to GOG's own download application. The DRM, for EADM-installed games, is SecuROM.
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michaelleung: You're TOTALLY some sort of Stardock shill, aren't you? I have seen this much Impulse love even from Stardock themselves.

I argue against misinformation and inferior solutions. I hold no loyalty to any given company or system. As such, I will support whatever I see as the best platform for my needs.
That platform happens to be Impulse at this point. That may change as the world of digital distribution evolves.
If you find that stance unreasonable, so be it. I would prefer if you not insult me with false labels, however.
Post edited November 29, 2009 by melchiz
Posted November 29, 2009
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Lucibel: At the moment Impulse is DRM. I'd have it over Steam, but at the moment it's the only vehicle for installing and activating some games. E.g. my digital download of Sins of a Solar Empire will only work if I install Impulse, input my email and password, and restore my Sins archive, as the archive installer you can make as backup is only installable with Impulse. I did tinker with it enough to see it's a 7zip archive, but couldn't figure how to install it standalone. From what I've read, Stardock are working on making their games non-Impulse reliant for those who'd rather not install it.
Of course it's not comparable to Securom, Starforce etc but at the moment it is DRM lite, better than any other DRM and Steam but worse than EA 's download manager because the EADM doesn't need to be installed if you reinstall EADM downloaded (Securom'd) games. Maybe it's different for third party games, but it's definitely part of the GOO DRM for Stardock games.
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melchiz: I have trouble classifying it as DRM because technically, it is not DRM. GOO is DRM, albeit light and "friendly" DRM, but Impulse itself is not truly DRM. Steam is DRM and is intended to be such. Impulse is not designed to operate as a DRM platform, and it doesn't function as DRM.
Also, EADM is a download manager, with no added features. It is similar to GOG's own download application. The DRM, for EADM-installed games, is SecuROM.

I mentioned EADM because many think it needs to be installed when running or installing EA store downloaded games. It doesn't. The Impulse client does (installing and updating) for the Stardock GOO games I have installed, therefore it's part of GOO DRM. It might not be technically DRM but it does function as DRM, whether you like it or not.
Post edited November 29, 2009 by Lucibel
Posted November 29, 2009
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Lucibel: I mentioned EADM because many think it needs to be installed when running or installing EA store downloaded games. It doesn't. The Impulse client does (installing and updating) for the Stardock GOO games I have installed, therefore it's part of GOO DRM. It might not be technically DRM but it does function as DRM, whether you like it or not.

Wrong. GOO does not require Impulse. GOO is platform-neutral. All versions of Red Faction: Guerrilla use GOO, but you need not use Impulse at any point to play them, install them, or update them.
I don't follow your reasoning above, even if your claims were true (unfortunately, as I have mentioned above, the claims are false).
Posted November 29, 2009
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Lucibel: I mentioned EADM because many think it needs to be installed when running or installing EA store downloaded games. It doesn't. The Impulse client does (installing and updating) for the Stardock GOO games I have installed, therefore it's part of GOO DRM. It might not be technically DRM but it does function as DRM, whether you like it or not.
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melchiz: Wrong. GOO does not require Impulse. GOO is platform-neutral. All versions of Red Faction: Guerrilla use GOO, but you need not use Impulse at any point to play them, install them, or update them.
I don't follow your reasoning above, even if your claims were true (unfortunately, as I have mentioned above, the claims are false).

Actually, I can't seem any reference to Sins of a Solar Empire having any (or GOO) DRM, so it appears my digital download might be "DRM-free". But then if it can only be installed and activated with the Impulse client, how is Impulse therefore not DRM to some extent?
Posted November 29, 2009
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Lucibel: Actually, I can't seem any reference to Sins of a Solar Empire having any (or GOO) DRM, so it appears my digital download might be "DRM-free". But then if it can only be installed and activated with the Impulse client, how is Impulse therefore not DRM to some extent?

Sins doesn't have any sort of DRM (this was widely publicized at the time of release). You can run the game without Impulse. The game does not require activation. The game has no install limits.
Do you consider an install package to be a form of DRM? Because the unpacked files cannot simply be copied between machines and used to play most games. I still cannot understand your reasoning. How is a download manager/installer a form of DRM? It is not required to run games.
Must I repeat that point? How can something be DRM if it does not run in the background when launching or running software? The Impulse process remains dormant. You can uninstall Impulse after downloading/installing your game. Do you wish to upgrade your game? Install Impulse, update, and dump it again.
Do you understand what constitutes DRM? Design is part of what determines if something is DRM. Impulse is not designed as a DRM platform. It is not intended to stop piracy or protect content. This fact is evident for several reasons, including:
-Stardock produces a DRM system known as GOO; why use Impulse as "DRM" if they have GOO?
-Impulse doesn't have any copy-protection fuctions outside of bundling vendor DRM (such as SecuROM and GOO) at the behest of publishers
-If Impulse were DRM, it would be pretty worthless, because it can be uninstalled by users with no consequence whatsoever to software functionality
You may feel that Impulse is DRM, but it is not. I could use many of your arguments to claim that InstallShield is DRM, or that my old Super Nintendo carts employ DRM.
Note:
You may find the following link helpful--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
Post edited November 29, 2009 by melchiz
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Steam has failed you, yet again.(355 posts)(355 posts)
(355 posts)