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General discussion (archive)StarForge and Fan Art(27 posts)(27 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 26, 2012
I just found this a bit intriguing. Check out the TOS/Privacy Policy page on Starforge's official website, specifically the clause concerning fan content (videos, screenshots, fan art, etc) of StarForge:

http://www.starforge.com/privacy.html

So, what are your thoughts on this? Have you guys seen this sort of thing in other TOS/EULA clauses? How fair does this seem to you?
Posted November 27, 2012
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Zaphoogin: So, what are your thoughts on this? Have you guys seen this sort of thing in other TOS/EULA clauses? How fair does this seem to you?
That's bullshit flavored bullshit. I feel good about not donating.
other sites online may be malicous, contain viruses, or intend to defruad you
you are soley responsible
There is no guarantee that your name will be listed in the founders club
you must have your purchased approved
you agree that CodeHatch Corp. has sole discretion in determining if your claim is valid and if your claim is valid what the solution will be
You also agree that the amount of exclusive items offered in the Founders Club needed may change at anytime
There are no refunds for anyone who purchased StarForge.
We at CodeHatch Corp. cannot guarantee that StarForge will be in development at any time, nor can we say when it will be completed. We also cannot guarantee that it will always remain available for purchase. There is also always a risk of the project ending completely.
If you insist on sending unsolicited idea's
relating to your unsolicated idea
You also agree that we own the full rights to anything you say in any of our official communication channels(StarForge's Chat, Forums, Our Websites, Our Social Media Websites) and that we can do whatever we please with it including selling it without having to pay any royalty to you. You also agree that we can moderate any of your information at anytime through any method.
from your use or misues
We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without notice, with immediate and/or retroactive effect.
If theres any questions about the legality of something your doing please contact us at the email address below.
Posted November 27, 2012
I'm sorry but I have to go and vomit... whaaaarkkk!
Posted November 27, 2012
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Zaphoogin: I just found this a bit intriguing. Check out the TOS/Privacy Policy page on Starforge's official website, specifically the clause concerning fan content (videos, screenshots, fan art, etc) of StarForge:

http://www.starforge.com/privacy.html

So, what are your thoughts on this? Have you guys seen this sort of thing in other TOS/EULA clauses? How fair does this seem to you?
It reads from my perspective like somebody who doesn't really have a legal eduction but devoted some time on reading about it.

Nothing nefarious. Quite the contrary, they are openly putting down rules that they can enforce by law into their ToS. (This transparency makes it quite obvious that this wasn't written by somebody with a legal education). It's not 100% legit (especially the "Unsolicited Idea Submissions and Communication" section), but certainly a good effort.
Posted November 27, 2012
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SimonG: (This transparency makes it quite obvious that this wasn't written by somebody with a legal education).
THAT was your sign the person lacks legal education?
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SimonG: It's not 100% legit (especially the "Unsolicited Idea Submissions and Communication" section), but certainly a good effort.
Good effort my ass. It's cribbed from somewhere and then infused with bullshit. You can even see how the quality of the text degrades once they start talking about specific product-related matters that they didn't have the brains to copypaste.
Posted November 27, 2012
It seems quite open and honest to me. Neither of these indie developers are lawyers, and there is nothing here which is not found in other more 'legal speak' ToS's hidden behind jargon.
Posted November 27, 2012
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SimonG: (This transparency makes it quite obvious that this wasn't written by somebody with a legal education).
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Starmaker: THAT was your sign the person lacks legal education?
Yup, because it makes them quite vulnerable. Especially the "fan video section" is ridiculous.

What you call BS is in most cases standard legal procedure. Other site and companies don't spell it out because they want to avoid a bad rep (you are proving their point right now).

In the current case they are very forward about it. Which is unusual, but would probably be best if more would do it.
Posted November 27, 2012
In a way it is funny how you are reacting to someone spelling out quite clearly, though a bit amateurishly, what others are hiding behind lawyer talk and round-about legal jargon. I prefer this approach, to be honest, though it does leave them more open for attacks.
Posted November 27, 2012
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SimonG: In the current case they are very forward about it. Which is unusual, but would probably be best if more would do it.
Honestly I think legal jargon should be something that people are taught how to be able to read in school - especially when one considers how many contracts and legal documents the average person has to sign. Heck just joining a forum, buying a game or getting a mobile phone (all things most kids do long before they are adults) requires reading and signing contracts; however most just sign without ever actually reading or trying to understand them.

It would be a great thing if legalities could come out of the dark and be more openly discussed. The problem is too many companies have hidden it away to the point where hiding it is almost seen as the norm because the average person is so disconnected with legalities (or it could be said to be the other way around sometimes) that even very normal legal terms and rights can appear very shocking to them (Esp if they were never aware of them in the first place).
Posted November 27, 2012
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amok: In a way it is funny how you are reacting to someone spelling out quite clearly, though a bit amateurishly, what others are hiding behind lawyer talk and round-about legal jargon. I prefer this approach, to be honest, though it does leave them more open for attacks.
GOG is quite interesting example. They have some very good written TOS, covering most of the basics while having a nice line between openess and lawyertalk. As they are usually very customer friendly there really isn't any issue in them "not spelling out the bad stuff". And it is just written well.
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overread: Honestly I think legal jargon should be something that people are taught how to be able to read in school - especially when one considers how many contracts and legal documents the average person has to sign. Heck just joining a forum, buying a game or getting a mobile phone (all things most kids do long before they are adults) requires reading and signing contracts; however most just sign without ever actually reading or trying to understand them.

It would be a great thing if legalities could come out of the dark and be more openly discussed. The problem is too many companies have hidden it away to the point where hiding it is almost seen as the norm because the average person is so disconnected with legalities (or it could be said to be the other way around sometimes) that even very normal legal terms and rights can appear very shocking to them (Esp if they were never aware of them in the first place).
That is actually covered by European Law. As a common citizen, you are protected against legal jargon. It is interesting for people beyond it. Eg. most ToS aren't really meant for "average users" but to prevent commercial exploitation of a consumer aimed service. (Eg. people trading with Steam keys on a "professional level")

The problem is that consumers are stepping out of the role of consumers (Kickstarter eg is not a store) without bothering to properly educate themselves on the issues.

It is literally written into an EU directive for ToS that "everything what surprises the customer is void".
Post edited November 27, 2012 by SimonG
Posted November 27, 2012
i can read legalese. (I can, and do, write legalese, because the legal department is a bunch of photocopier addons managed by "a guy who knows guys who know guys who have a chance to know someone who can tell whoever's suing you to stfu, as a personal favor". The best lawyers are tribal princes, until the highest tier where they get screwed by racism.) What I can't do is to say whether the license/tos/contract/whatever is in compliance with the law and at all enforceable.
For example, this:
We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without notice, with immediate and/or retroactive effect.
says whoever deals with them is retroactively fucked. If it said the same thing in ten times as many words, I'd have understood it, too. But i have no idea whether it's legit or not.
Posted November 27, 2012
We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without notice, with immediate and/or retroactive effect.
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Starmaker: says whoever deals with them is retroactively fucked. If it said the same thing in ten times as many words, I'd have understood it, too. But i have no idea whether it's legit or not.
Let me put it this way, if something sounds like it could be said by Sith Lord, it hardly is legal.

(It all depends on the deal and the circumstances, of course.)
Post edited November 27, 2012 by SimonG
Posted November 27, 2012
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SimonG: Let me put it this way, if something sounds like it could be said by Sith Lord, it hardly is legal.

(It all depends on the deal and the circumstances, of course).
I'm in Russia, a country where you can be locked up and shipped to the labor camp for breaking a law that's been repealed for 95 years, and where the opposition introduces a bill severely limiting the freedom of speech that has to be shot down by the ruling party. So the relative sanity of EU laws is really unusual.
Posted November 27, 2012
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Starmaker: I'm in Russia, a country where you can be locked up and shipped to the labor camp for breaking a law that's been repealed for 95 years, and where the opposition introduces a bill severely limiting the freedom of speech that has to be shot down by the ruling party. So the relative sanity of EU laws is really unusual.
Isn't the opposition also the ruling party in new clothes? But from what I heard about Russia, it doesn't sound good.

Interestingly enough, I've met some highly qualified and enthusiastic judges from Belarus of all places. Never met a Russian judge.

Azerbaijan is also fun. To quote their Head of the Supreme Court: "Of course our judges are free in their decision making. As long as their decisions are within government policy." And he said that in a speech at a UN founded conference about judicial independence. The only person that called him out on his bullshit was a judge from Austria. The rest of the party (which included supreme court judges from several European countries as well as the occasional (former) Minister of Justice and UN official just clapped along ....
Posted November 27, 2012
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SimonG: GOG is quite interesting example. They have some very good written TOS, covering most of the basics while having a nice line between openess and lawyertalk. As they are usually very customer friendly there really isn't any issue in them "not spelling out the bad stuff". And it is just [i]written well[/i].
As the non lawyer who wrote the updated TOS back in 2010, thanks. :P
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)StarForge and Fan Art(27 posts)(27 posts)
(27 posts)