You're all trying your best to talk past each other. :P

When you're talking about "ownership", amok is concerned with legal issues, while you and others are concerned with more practical matters. Personally I'd agree that the practical matters are of greater interest to the average consumer, so arguing about legal issues in these cases comes across a bit like hairsplitting to me, but to amok's credit, he clearly made the distinction between the law and its enforcement, so he's actually aware of what you're talking about, he just refuses the notion that DRM-free games can't have their licenses revoked in a legal sense, just because noone can enforce it. DRM-free means you get to keep your game if you backed it up, but it doesn't automatically mean you're allowed to keep it.

That being said, I don't know under which conditions it would be legal to withdraw a bought license, be it on Steam or on GOG. The problem is that Steam could theoretically enforce it even if the law was not on their side, and then it would be up to you to sue them or just go along with it because it would be too much trouble to prove them wrong.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say as well.

yeah... I am sorry for splitting hairs, but I really do dislike calling buying a game on Steam for 'renting'. It erks me. For me it is just propaganda, presenting something as something it is not to twist an argument. While propaganda in itself can be seen as neutral, I do dislike its use.

Call it enforced license, call it lack of control, call it... heck...DRM if you want. All those things are correct. Renting it is not.

(but I may argue against the DRM label on Steam just because Steam :))

We think alike! And that's the very reason i love Steam. I have over 1200 games split among computers and consoles so i know what you mean by owning things instead of owning "code".
I buy games at retail, physical copies (talking about PC) and i register them on Steam. It was a dream coming true.
You see i kinda dislike the digital sales age. I love, like you do, owning a product, putting it in my collection and actually be able to feel it, watch it, marvel at it.
The problem is that I always need to choose, physical or digital? Physical is a pain since i need to reach for my copy whenever i want to install it. I can back it up, but i still need to reach out for that folder/dvd-r to install it. Digital is comfy but I have to forget about a nice box.
Enter Steamworks. Now i can have my nice box AND i can safely store it away after registering it. That, is a big plus for me.


(i wish i had the same thing for my consoles, without resorting to emulation, where emulation is possible of course..)

No.

If you have a physical copy, you own the medium, and you own the (permanent) license to use it.

If you buy a game on GOG you gain a temporary ("for the time being") right to download it. You own the downloaded installer file (as a medium) and own the (permanent) license to use it.

If you buy a game on Steam you gain a temporary right "for the time being" to download it. You have a temporary ("for the time being") license to use it. If the game is DRM-free, they just leave a backdoor open that license revocation can't be enforced effectively. But how many people know about this? And how many (and especially recent AAA) games are DRM-free? And no matter - you never own a permanent license to your Steam games. It's always "for the time being". Steam can just take it away for excessive gifting...

By saying you love Steam it only makes me think your misunderstood Tom. What I mean is that even if you buy a boxed CD and register it on Steam, if Steam falls your disc becomes useless and in a certain sense you don't own the game either ways.

Let's make this clear.

A lot of retain games with game data inside them can be installed in the Steam -> SteamApps -> Common. If the game has been recently updated Steam will ONLY download portion of the updated files. So let say the game requirement is 10GB and you installed the game through Disc, Steam may only have to download a couple of GBs THUS saving you a couple of bandwidth in the process. This is of couse for people with slow internet connection and have no choice about that like various reasons like region, ISP monopoly and such.

WAIT this is WEIRD! I'm Adokat? WHAT HAPPENED!

Further edit: This is seriously weird. I haven't made any of these posts. What's going on?

you are wrong, actually. Buying a licences on Steam gives you the (permanent) access to the license and to use it within the bounds of the license agreement. However, you can loose access to the license via Steam, in the same way you can loose access to a license via gOg (gOg can even remove a game from you library). The difference here, again, is not in the ownership of the license, but in he enforcement of the license agreement.

Not really. Steam can revoke a license. "Enter physical game store name here" can't. GOG can't. Buy to own, it's on their front page - and it's legally binding. I believe even if they suspended your account - by that phrase on the front they would need to give you a last chance to redeem your "owned" games when they shut you out. So I'm talking about legal issues.

see above.

It's grassroots propaganda, but "buy a game" is propaganda too. Copyright holders say "buy a game" and "you wouldn't download a car", but are the first to point out games don't behave like cars at all when they are told to pay up. I suggest "buy a license" (or, as it may be, "licence").

When you say when you buy a game off of Steam you have a 'temporary' license to use it, that's just your opinion. It's not a fact that Steam will prevent you access to all your games just like it's not a fact that they won't. You are assuming that one day Steam shuts down and everyone's library will be gone.

The only difference between Steam and GoG is with GoG you don't have to ask the hypothetical question 'what if the server shuts down' unless your backups fail. In that case then, the services are identical because if your backups fail (for whatever the reason) and GoG is shut down you have lost access to redownload the games that you paid for.

^^ this.

Wrong.

While it's true that retail disc gets obsolete fast you can still install the game and Steam will discover the file and download the rest of the updated files. The disc are not useless like you claim it to be.

I know. I am not that dense. I know it won't work if steam "erases" it. Thing is, up until now I sometimes had to buy 2 copies of each game and that was no fun. I remember being very very pleased at the few games that had steam compatibility even if not advertised (UTIII for example) as it meant not having to buy it again digitally.

And again, from 2004 to now, no games out of my 268 on Steam was erased. So, yay? I m sure one day it will all end, but I am sure that people will find a way to make it all work again:)!
Just like Dosbox brought me back all the games that in time became just boxes orderly placed on my shelf.