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Darkcloud: It is the only Infinity Engine where you can reach level 99 by default and farm for hours for stupidly overpowered crap that you don't need.

Many people say that the games combat is pretty easy and the focus isn't on combat and I agree to quite some extend but there are quite some areas connecting the "story parts" which follow an approach you would more expect in a hack and slash game and it is the probably the most limiting one in terms of places where you can rest.
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Crowseye: So are you saying that because there is an absurd level cap (it's actually 127 before things break IIRC) and you can acquire items with cool names and good stats, this proves that acquiring powerful items and defeating powerful enemies in combat do not in fact take a bakcseat but are in fact intended to be as appealing as the game's story-based elements?
More about the its easy part. It has more resource management than most RPGs and there are quite some people that farm that stuff for hours.
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Fenixp: Trouble is, you can't possibly know what the devil is going to give you unless you're cheating, and evil chracter will be more inclined to help another evil character when given the choice. Well, usually.
Judging by the the experience with other black abishai it is safe to assume that the best thing you can expect from him is not being torn into pieces.
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Fenixp: Trouble is, you can't possibly know what the devil is going to give you unless you're cheating, and evil chracter will be more inclined to help another evil character when given the choice. Well, usually.
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HiPhish: Judging by the the experience with other black abishai it is safe to assume that the best thing you can expect from him is not being torn into pieces.
Except you didn't state this is a Black Abishai but is a devil who has only been a problem to this 1 guy and not others (generic self-controlled/ruled demon i'm guessing? So has his own personality/objectives?haven't played PS:T yet). You do not know how he reacts, he could be of further use to you in the future/make your evil doings easier. You stated that you already knew the rewards and that you would choose it over just informing the devil. How do you know the devil will give you a reward for the information or not? that he won't help you later on? it's meta-gaming like that that is the difference between RP and Non-RP. As far as "evil being a club" that's true in quite a few cases it's not necessarily true (hence lawful evil), BUT it can be a way of helping you out in the end. Would you rather have your enemies distracted by another source of evil so you can amass your power without interruptions or kill that potential great source of benefit for one measly item?
Post edited December 24, 2012 by Giltonnam
Black abishai are the only devils you meet in Sigil for whatever reason. Basically they are are assholes and don't like anyone. Besides, why would a devil, any devil, reward you? They are evil, so if you just hand them the information of course they won't give you anything. They'll just laugh at you "Haha, look at this idiot, he thought it would be noble or some s***". Now, if you were able to "sell" the information, that would have been a clever way to handle the situation and be truly evil, but you can't. Also, the devils in hell just attack on sight, so much for lawful evil VS chaotic evil, especially if half the game is all in your face about the diffeference between devils and demons. I could poke holes into the writing all day, but this is just minor nitpicking considering my overall complaint.
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tinyE: I have a totally serious question to ask of the Planescape critics and I have become genuinly fascinated by the turn of the thread. I'd like to know from the critics what they consider to be great RPGS. Specifically from HiPhish; you make a brilliant argument but I'd like to have a model of something you like to compare it too. I myself don't care what people call it or where it falls categorically. So long as it's fun, let them call it anything they want, I'll still play.
Great RPG's according to me: The Witcher. Had me so involved that I'd agonise over decisions, not for likely risks or rewards, but what they meant to me.
Aside from that, I haven't met any other real cRPG's that I consider great, with the possible exception of TES, which fall down on real role-playing. For me, most cRPG's fail in allowing true role-play. Sure, some are open-ended sandobxes... that have a driving plotline, that without doing it the world becomes repetitive. And often even with it becomes repetitive.
As I said, PST for me just fell down on sheer irritation value-the death mechanic makes it feel ridiculous, combat is just bleh so you DO die-far too often too early, and no I wasn't in an overlevelled area because I couldn't GET to anywhere interesting.
Actually, another game thats come to mind for RPG value is not really a cRPG. Space Rangers 2, currently unavailable on GoG but I hope they get it back up soon. Dynamic universe that you play a greater and greater role in, dynamic attitude systems that could have annoying consequences... I really enjoyed it, and have probably done more RP in it than most cRPG's I've played. Older cRPG's try to be good RPG's, but fail on clunky interfaces, immersion, and interaction, whereas most newer cRPG's I've found are more mechanics-oriented.
If you want to RPG, actually get a tabletop though. I'd play PST with a real-life DM, and would probably be less frustrated. Maybe.
My favorite villains aren't the ones who are evil for the sake of being evil, but who have understandable goals and motivations.
They genuinely think that what they are trying to do is good, but the means that they are willing to use are more than the "good guys" are willing to allow.
Post edited December 25, 2012 by Soyeong
With all the people on here going nuts wanting it on here for so long, I doubt it isn't worth checking it out.

It is commonly held to be the best game of all time by many critics.

I have never played it myself, though I do have it.
I'm going to skip most of your comments on the basis that others have already said pretty much everything I would have had to say about them.

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HiPhish: I played through the entire thing desperately trying to understand what people see in it. When I ask them what they liked about it the answer is always "the story and the characters". You don't need to *play* the game for that, you can just *watch* it on YouTube instead and skip the tedious parts.
In this case, though, you would be forced to watch whatever kind of character the other person is playing. There are plenty of conversation options, and watching the consequences of one you would not have picked might be even more tedious than Torment's admittedly substandard combat mechanics. Some of also find discovering things on our own quite rewarding, which is something YouTube hardly lets you do.
Eh, you would be right if the choices were really complex but honestly they aren't. i always did the thing where i would safe, make a choice and then reload just to see what the other choices do, but I'd eventually stick with my original pick. Doesn't really make that much of a difference. The developers should have just thrown all the RPG mechanics out of the window and focused entirely on the dialogues to make a truly non-linear point&click adventure. In most (all?) adventures everything is stricktly linear, you have to go to those places, do those things and talk about those topics. How cool would it have been to have an adventure where there is a myriad of solutions, each closing one set of path but opening up a new set.
Post edited December 25, 2012 by HiPhish
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HiPhish: Eh, you would be right if the choices were really complex but honestly they aren't. i always did the thing where i would safe, make a choice and then reload just to see what the other choices do, but I'd eventually stick with my original pick. Doesn't really make that much of a difference. The developers should have just thrown all the RPG mechanics out of the window and focused entirely on the dialogues to make a truly non-linear point&click adventure. In most (all?) adventures everything is stricktly linear, you have to go to those places, do those things and talk about those topics. How cool would it have been to have an adventure where there is a myriad of solutions, each closing one set of path but opening up a new set.
:) So you kept exiting the game ("dying") and reloading ("ressurecting") to confirm your choices were the best and were safe.
Then it "happened" that choices didn't feel consequential (made no difference), almost as if you gradually lost the will to play (to care, to remember).
Looks to me like you got the "bad ending" and didn't even notice the "alternative path" your play style closed, regardless of what actually happened in the game. ;)
I didn't need confirmation that my choices were the best because I quickly saw th pattern: b nice to nice people and you get the best rewards, avoid confrontation with bad people by either intimidating them or doing work for them and you avoid combat. i just reloaded for fun to see what else could happen, but I always stuck with the first choice. Before someone accuses me that this is min-maxing as well, you do the same thing in real life, you pick the choices that will be most beneficial to you.

I don't know what you mean by bad ending, but I SPOILER blah nonsense merged random words don't read with really spoiler the I warned you other random padding other one blah blah quarter thing SPOILER This forum really need a spoiler tag
Let me say I largely agree with you as regards videogame genre taxonomy, and most people (starting with the designers) will agree the DnD mechanics (especially combat related) are a mixed bag in PS:T.

As to the bad ending, as you finished the game I don't need to spoil anything to say I was struck by the parallel between what you told us, and the narrative of PS:T itself.

The bad ending for you was not enjoying the game for what it was. And it sounds as if you kept investing the time, despite of the gameplay frustrations, to reach the end.
Why? :)

More broadly have you ever reloaded, noticed the choice you took initially was not optimal, but continued with it anyway?
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HiPhish: i just reloaded for fun to see what else could happen, but I always stuck with the first choice. Before someone accuses me that this is min-maxing as well, you do the same thing in real life, you pick the choices that will be most beneficial to you.
Man, I would kill for a quick save & load in real life. :P
This game had so many amazing moments for me. Meeting Ravel, learning the teachings of Zerthimon with Dak'kon, finding out why Morte was following me, discovering Ignus's past... The companions have a lot going on and their stories tie neatly into the overarching themes of regret, torment and forgiveness. I enjoyed how interactions with them change both you and them, allowing for some real character development, and I thought that all four of the TNO's "love interests" were handled relatively well. YMMV, of course.
Post edited December 25, 2012 by Mrstarker