What I am trying to state is that the existing definition of a fact is an allusion to the most tenable conjecture. This does not mean that we must entirely discard the notions of reason and logic entirely. If that were to happen then it would lead to a state of utter dystopia.....It is to preserve rational conjecture that we must continue in our never ending quest for knowledge. It is not the destination that matters but the joy of discovery. For if we are to know everything then life would be too dull..

It is not just knowledge though. It is to know the depths of joy, of sorrow and the various facets of human emotion that work towards enriching our lives.

Conform to what? We are talking about a certificate here not a life shifting event. Getting it early when it is easy and is traditional to do so not putting it for later when it may affect kids life for worse. Conform or else? Else what? Else that you will have to take days extra days of work to have traditional wedding?
And how is that harmful.... Giving the kid a choice in participating in many traditional activities of polish society.
And yeah. Oppression. A fucking piece of paper is oppression

Oh no worries there - if you for example take look at the literature of ancient greeks, youll they wrote about the very same thing we do today: Youth are spoiled, people dont have any morals, ancients were wise, things were better before, what good Gods are for and ofcourse the matters of love.

So in the past 2000+ years we, as people have not really change. We may sit more inside, do office work and grow fat on fast food - but the stuff people speak and think about havent actually changed one bit in all these years.

The "quest for knowledge" I am mostly interested isnt technological one - but more psychological, moral - whose knows, maybe spiritual.

I agree totally.

Taking into consideration that we aren't huddled in a cave somewhere, utterly terrified of lightning, floods and other natural phenomena, dying of disease and exposure before we are thirty, I'd be tempted to incline towards the yes side.

Do it. Get all certificates. Some can be useful some not. Don't snip the cock it is not your decision to make but if you can get all of them that's good thing in my opinion. Not exactly. Erasing your baptism record is simple. Erasing everything else is not because of shitty polish beaurocracy. Then you have to explain to your kid that communion participating in 3 days off school will leave a track record which will be hard to delete. Then it his choice. Which we are not discussing here are we. Only a certificate and how getting it early in life can be bad/good for the kid How getting a baptism equals to your parents making you go take the communion? It is about giving one a choice. Not making anyone to do anything. That's wrong. And I approve, how is getting a piece of paper stopping those lessons? Conform to what? Am I telling you to believe in anything? To believe baptism has any meaning... Okay. But what if he wants to do that. Will you prohibit that? Then don't have the kid indoctrinated. For gods' sake. Why people assume that I am suggesting that the kid should become a perfect Church member? How is getting a certificate equal to him being brainwashed, forcing to talk about touching oneself asshole

So you think parents shouldn't make decisions for their kids on what they think is best?

You think a 8 year old kid should decide on his own? If he wants to become a satanist, I should let him, because well, it's his decision, just like having a communion!

Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

Here's a shocker to you - as a parent, I and my spouse will choose which school he will attend. Of course we will hear his opinion, it is important, but it will not change our minds 180 degrees when he's just big enough to tell us what kind of burger he wants to get.

And you were talking about church wedding and communion, not just about being baptised. And to take first communion, I would have to let my kid being brainwashed in church and in school at religion lessons and I will not allow that.

So no, we are not talking about the piece of paper, because that piece of paper can be get in 30 seconds if you are adult, so it's not a slightest problem.

If we are talking about communion and church wedding though, it's a horrible process I had to take part when I was a kid, and my kiddo won't participate in it. Not when he's 8 years old.

I met a lot of people who were forced into religion when they were kids, and it took them many years of struggle to abandon this. I want my kid to stay open minded and decide when he or she is ready.

And again, if we are talking only about "a piece of paper", there is no problem, even a slightest, to let my kid do that on his own, when he's 13 for example, or as an adult. There are no problems with being baptised at any age and not being baptised doesn't change a thing in his life.

If you cross out the few first of that list, the rest are still quite much happening around the globe.

Anyway, we may not be worried about lightning any more (sometimes should) - but we have whole lot new things we are worried about. Although I dont ofcourse have any hard evidence to back it up - i believe people in general are always terrified or scared about around equal amount of things:

If its not lightning, its wrath of God, or meteor from outer space, or bear in the forest, or the communists, or megatsunamis, or oilpeak, or bacteria, cancer, old age, being poor or whatever.

Certainly the amount of (possible) fears havent decreased over the ages. We are a species that tends to scared of stuff - just listen to the politician for example: "Do what I want or we'll all perish!".

Fears and saviours ->>that pretty much sums big part of human history, if i put it somewhat cynically :)

You had to. You were forced to. And as a parent you should not do it. If the kid finds the process horrible he should quit it at any point and you as parent should allow it.

And you are exagerating, Comparing communion to satanism? Were you scared so badly that your hatred for Church makes you believe that 45 min a week for four or so months will undo parents education about the world society morals... Assuming that the teacher is a crazy fanatic, cause my experience was about how being helpful, polite, respectful is a good thing not how gay people are destroying humanity or how not believing is road to hell (which is really much bigger part in Protestant religion than in catholic, I recall how weird it was finding out that Jesus is the savior and all that when I was in USA. And I was fairly competent student)



Can you clarify this part
You don't baptism him and when time for his first communion comes and your kid wants to participate you will,refuse?

I don't know if I'm exaggerating. Most civilized countries threw out religion from public life for a reason. I am against teaching religion at public school, so I wouldn't rather see my kid participating in them.

I agree that much depends on a religion teacher. My own in primary school was a fanatic priest who told me few times to knee before wall because I asked some "stupid" question.

It wasn't a city, a smaller town, so you may imagine why it's not that easy for parents to oppose an abusing priest, when "townfolks" support them from fear or "tradition".

My parents were brought up in strictly catholic family, so they tremble even today, when a priest is going from house to house in January to get money, because if you refuse a priest, he will call your name in public and the whole town will know that you didn't give him money.

I don't want my future family to be a part of that shit. I don't want a priest to have my kid's names in their records to use them to condemn them publicly because of something.

I don't know how long ago you were in Poland last time, but religion is still being forced on people, especially on the youngest ones. And it's more than 2 hours a week in school, because kids have to go to church every sunday, and every day during "roraty" to get first communion.

That's a lot of time for some wacko to tell my kid and convience him that his parents are going to hell. And when you are a 6-8 year old brat, you are going to believe him. And maybe we just want to spare ourselves quarrels like that and having to tell him that "thinking about girls is not impure and you don't have to worry about that", like my father had to tell me after religion classes.

Small kid may think that attending to religion classes and communion is a good thing, because "everybody else does that", but that doesn't mean we have to comply. Being "injected" with religion at a young age is in my opinion much more harmful than not being baptised.

And I'm not going to baptise my kid, just as I'm not going to enroll them to karate/boxing/pool/dancing/wrestling classes all at once, because if I don't do that, it may limit their possibilities. We will choose what we think is best for our children, knowing what they do and don't like, what their talents and possibilities are, and by hearing out their opinions.

Not just because "he may want to do something when he's 30yo". Because he might want to be a professional boxer when he turns 20, or a football player too. We can't predict everything.

Probably. Just like I would refuse him after he tells "I want that toy because Toby has it". Kids arguments at that age are mostly "I want to take communion because Toby has", and it's not something you should simply follow, because your kid says so.

As I've said I will say again: I believe kids are too small to make choices like that. They are too small to buy themselves an expensive toy or create a twitter account according to law, so they are usually too small to decide if they want to be catholic or not. In my opinion, that decision should be made around 13-15 years old, and allow me to raise my children in that belief.

It would feel rather hypocritical if you let your kid to decide on its own about religion at the age of 8, but you don't let them stay outdoors as long as they want, because "They're just kids" ;-D

And with that, my kid will have a few years to check, get knowledge etc to know better if he wants to be catholic or not. If at the age of 13 or 15 he will still want to be a member of that church, that would mean for me he really wants that, not only follows the flock, because he wants to "fit in" with the rest of the kids.

But I believe it will not be a problem in larger cities in a few years from now, and a lot of kids will not have their communions, just because "it's what everybody's doin"

Of course I will let my kid to decide if he wants to be religious or not - when me and my wife decide the kid is ready and mature enough to do that. Being religious or not, is among the most important decisions in your life.

Satanism is more of a philosophy than "proper" religion btw, pretty interesting as well - I think I should sometime finally buy that LaVey's book out of simple curiosity.

The heavy metal listening, computer gameplaying heretics are typically satan worshippers - but then again, there are probably lots of groups and intepretions so ill just :X

Sorry, i just couldnt resist.

It´s rather because of this, and (some would say) inherent organizational behavior that creates this inertia (and in some cases it is even necessary). One other reason is that they don´t want people to leave. Since the divorce from the state people leaving the church has been extensive in Sweden.

Conform or apparently polish society oppresses you. After all, this is the entire foundation of your argument: that the child will be excluded and put upon if he isn't baptized. You're saying "get the certificate or it's a life shifting event!" That's the very definition of oppression.

And yes, trying to teach your kid what to believe and how to stand up for himself and not be pressured to conform when they'd rather not is going to be a 100 times harder if you've been a hypocrite in that realm. I don't know if you've been around a lot of kids as an adult, but they pick up on that hypocrisy shit really early on and really easily. What's more, initially their sense of identity is tied to their parents until they fully develop their own. Being a weak willed parent that won't even stand up for what they believe is actually mentally damaging to your child.

So if it's "just a certificate" then FUCK IT. It clearly doesn't matter. You can't have it both ways, where it matters a lot if you don't do it but doesn't matter if you do. It either matters or it doesn't, and you've clearly been arguing that it matters a fuck of a lot.

And seriously, "days of extra work" for a traditional wedding or to take part in a religion. That is the height of irony arguing that religion is so fucking important until you have to, you know, spend time practicing it. What the fuck, seriously?!

If others' arguments, which are more well researched and better than any job I could possibly do here (or maybe anywhere) haven't changed your mind about Aquinas, I'm not about to try. There's plenty of great stuff on the subject, dunno if you've read it, kind of sounds like you have and it had no impact.

As far as Carlin, come on, his bits are all over Youtube, just search for "carlin god" and you'll get the most famous bits. I suppose I could transcribe the gist of them here, but they're seriously like 3-10 minutes long.

Well that's the thing, I'm a white, hetero, upper middle class male and I've felt it here (what's more I grew up religious and have studied a ton of religion, not enough for a degree, but far more than your average church goer), so I know where they're coming from, but I feel oppressed too and I'm not even getting the brunt of it.

Religion is very free to here to deeply influence politics, people have been arrested and had their lives ruined for the "crime" of being gay. All because a lot of people seem to feel that if they don't "attack" sin that somehow their "loving god" will send them straight to hell AND that there will no longer be any safe places to raise their families.

Ask most religious folks how much of the US is religious and they will usually woefully underestimate the real numbers. Depending on how you count only 11-16% of the US identifies as anything equivalent to atheist. Given that a lot of folks live in even more demographically skewed areas you can literally end up being surrounded by 98% religious people in a lot of places in the US.

So, I'm not saying you don't have a point, I'm just saying I can see why people who identify as atheist that have grown up under these kinds of circumstances (particularly if they're in a group that would typically be more oppressed) would lash out. Given that they feel they're being a oppressed by the equivalent of people who believe in Odin or Zeus this is surely especially galling.