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mqstout: Everything's wrong with enemy scaling. Suddenly the world has NO weak things around? And there are no strong things for you to have to work to avoid early on?

In games, do you never go back after leveling up to see how fun it can be just to slaughter masses of the wimpy goblins? With enemy scaling, the game feels flat.



Enemy scaling is the worst kind of immersion-destroying metagame mechanic.
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Crewdroog: honestly, no I do not. I have fun in games through beating challenging opponents. Maybe that's why I enjoy FPS so much, dunno. If a game's enemies are too easy to kill, there is no point in playing the game. I want a game where I can walk into any area wondering if my ass is gonna get handed to me or not. I think level grinding to beat a challenging foe is silly. Either you are skillful enough as a player to figure out how to take down the boss or you are not. Just because you killed 50 more lvl 1 scamps and earned a stupid x amount of XP is no reason to be able to beat a boss. By playing the game and learning the mechanics, THAT is why you should be able to progress.
Ideally a game has 1: Some amount of skill based mechanics and B: a wide assortment of enemies of varying dangerousness that you can run into at any time. Oblivion and Skyrim have neither. You're always more or less on the same level with everything (although Skyrim fixes that slightly). There is no challenge in either of them due to the level scaling. Beating Alduin at level 50 is just as easy as being Alduin at level one because nothing is skill based. You have the exact same attacks at level 80 as you did level 1 unless you bought some spells. In fact it's easy to breeze through the main quest of both at a low level. I finished the mage's college quest line in Oblivion at level 7 with no problems at all. Yep. A level 7 Arch Mage. I've also finished Skyrim's main quest under level 10 with zero issues. There was never any sense of danger or challenge or anything similar to that.

Compare that to the Gothic series. There are enemies who you can almost one shot at the very beginning of the game but at the very same time there are enemies that can and will one shot you. Both are present in the game world at the same time, you don't have to level up to level 10 before "giant monster of doom" is allowed to spawn. By leveling up you gain Learning Points which allow you to learn new attacks, use new weapons, etc. Your character's skill grows as you level up, which allows you to see your character's growth when facing once feared foes but there are always other enemies out there who can give you a run for your money. No level scaling required.

Or even compare it to Two Worlds. No level scaling in enemies, in the beginning of the game even regular wolves are a challenge. It's a challenge to fight more than two at a time, and that's the weakest enemy around, there are dozens of other enemies in the game world at the same time that make wolves seem like a training dummy. You can still explore the world at level 1 but if you see Orcs you better run. Once you get into the higher levels there are still challenging enemies around, and those now merely pesky wolves do not mysteriously disappear from the game world.

In short, level scaling (as used at least by The Elder Scrolls) removes any challenge from the game unless you focus nearly entirely on non-combat skills and turn the difficulty up to the highest level. You're never too weak to take on any boss in Oblivion and Skyrim is more or less the same (the only real exceptions being Giants and Mammoths). You can finish the main quest of both under the level 10 with next to no problems. Not only that but it's not even worth dungeon diving for loot because you'll never find anything better than what you're supposed to have at your current level.

Non-level scaling adds the challenge of running into enemies that you CAN'T beat at your current level, which gives you incentive to go work on your skills, level up, etc and gives you reason to venture into places you have no business being (in hopes of finding excellent loot). It also gives a great sense of progression when you can measure yourself against once fearsome foes that have become just annoyances and those that are still above you. You never know what you're going to run into next when a game isn't level scaled and that's more exciting (to me) than always being more or less on the same level (or stronger) than everything I encounter in Oblivion/Skyrim.

Now that that wall of text is out of the way I think I'll go reinstall Morrowind and see if I can find a couple of decent graphics mods and whatever the Morrowind equivalent of the Unofficial Patches are.
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ekj7: Couldn't even tell if I was hitting an enemy, never mind how much injury I was inflicting on them, or if the enemy was considered major to the plot and therefore unkillable. Stab, stab, stab... 10 minutes go by, stab, stab.. quit.
Something funny about that. If you aren't affecting an enemy it should tell you, although it's possible they could heal themselves...

But against supernatural, you need an enchanted weapon to hurt them. Doesn't matter if it's a 1 light for 1 second enchantment; Enchanted just hurts supernatural creatures...
Hi there!

Sorry for break the conversation, but how many of you play TES Arena/Dagerfall via DosBox? In GOG whislist some users have comment they want it on GOG because are tired of setting up DosBox in order to play those games.

If that is the case, i will be glad to provide a launcher that will avoid those problems.
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montcer9012: If that is the case, i will be glad to provide a launcher that will avoid those problems.
There already is one, I think it's downloadable from official wiki or something along those lines. In fact, there's a whole pre-configured DosBox installation for Arena and Daggerfall
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Fenixp: There already is one, I think it's downloadable from official wiki or something along those lines. In fact, there's a whole pre-configured DosBox installation for Arena and Daggerfall
Oh, cool, didn't know about that! Could you please tell me were can i found? Guess it is better set than mine.
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montcer9012: Oh, cool, didn't know about that! Could you please tell me were can i found? Guess it is better set than mine.
Bah, I was too lazy to goole. Oh all right, fine, here you go:
[url=http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Arena_:_ArenaSetup_EN]Arena setup[/url]
[url=http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN]Daggerfall setup[/url]
Hahahaha, i was the lazy one!

Will give those a try. Thanks mate!
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babark: The only real complaints about Morrowind would be about the graphics
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rtcvb32: Really? I recall after a while the game wanted to crash... a lot... Which would be my main gripe with the game, and i wish Bethesda would take a month and fix those bugs rather than shelving the game and making money as a back catalog unsupported game. You know, i bet they would change their minds real fast if there was a law where you couldn't sell a game you weren't actively keeping up to date (by say releasing patches/content once every 6 months at most).
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: And you can even exploit it to make things like infinite underwater breathing, summons that won't disappear unless killed, etc.
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rtcvb32: Actually that isn't an exploit. To create something like infinite healing or something like that, you have to have Grand gems with a soul, and pay the cost of the item by 10 vs a normal casting. It means some items you could never remake like rings that give you +5 to each armor bonus. So if it takes 10 points to cast, it takes 100 points for constant effect. Unless you have really strong enchanting making that would be difficult...

Course if you boost your enchantment high enough before hand you can guarantee making just about anything... If they made it so it takes say a second per point, then you would have to have raised stats/skills for 100 seconds (for something costing 100 points) in order to use them to affect creation of enchantments, which would have helped with balancing immensely. Smaller weaker enchantments would be more common, and sorta a stepping stone to making stronger stuff...
Why even bother making skill potions. Make skill poisons, drop your skill to 1 then train new levels for pennies a level.
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EBToriginal: Why even bother making skill potions. Make skill poisons, drop your skill to 1 then train new levels for pennies a level.
Done that before, dropping a skill to 0/1 by having a huge negative... Still takes an hour in game, and after you do that 30-40 times on skill xxx that's nearly an hour later you ask yourself 'why am i doing this again?'
The answer is of course, what crazy thing can I break next (usually involving casting jump with 99 athleticism then seeing how far I could go)(the answer is roughly across half the map)
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StingingVelvet: Morrowind has the best world, best writing and best lore.

Skyrim has the best combat, best graphics and best stealth/archery by far.

Oblivion has the best... uh... hmm...
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darthspudius: Best art design? it had some beautiful things to look at.
Just not the potato people. God those fat faces. I kept looking for a skillet every time a conversation started. Put on so much weight playing Oblivion.
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ekj7: Couldn't even tell if I was hitting an enemy, never mind how much injury I was inflicting on them, or if the enemy was considered major to the plot and therefore unkillable. Stab, stab, stab... 10 minutes go by, stab, stab.. quit.
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rtcvb32: Something funny about that. If you aren't affecting an enemy it should tell you, although it's possible they could heal themselves...

But against supernatural, you need an enchanted weapon to hurt them. Doesn't matter if it's a 1 light for 1 second enchantment; Enchanted just hurts supernatural creatures...
Any enemy you can't hit the game tells you "This weapon has no effect". Everything else, you'll eventually hit it. Of course the game is factoring random rolls in combination with your skill and fatigue as well, and you have to be in reasonable range regardless. Basically, 3D Dungeons and Dragons.
If you prefer to wander in fantastical creative areas, with lots of variety and unique alien-looking structures and designs, then Morrowind may be for you.

If you're not that imaginative, and prefer to wander in realistic-looking environments depicting snowy Northern European environments, then Skyrim is probably more for you. Of course you still have fire-breathing dragons, and orcs, and all that, so that's not realistic at all, but the overall look of the locales doesn't look nearly as creative as in Morrowind, and there's a lot less variety. Oblivion also goes for a more real-world-looking environment as in Skyrim.

Also Morrowind has a really old-style dialog system that's not really dialog... you just select topics from a list, and the NPC gives you an opinion or blurb about that topic.

While we're on the topic... there's really no reason for games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Doom to not be on GOG.com, except that Zenimax/Bethesda execs must have sticks up their collective *****.
Post edited December 23, 2014 by TDP
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Porkdish: Just not the potato people. God those fat faces. I kept looking for a skillet every time a conversation started. Put on so much weight playing Oblivion.
I was always of the opinion that Oblivion went the Mr Potato Head route because the faces and bodies in Morrowind were so narrow. It took until Skyrim for people with normal proportions to appear.

But people in Oblivion were definitely hit with the ugly stick!
Thread opener thread opener, what did you do to me??? I now badly NEED to go dig up that Morrowind Goty box, install, and sink in it again! You "burnt" me!!! Sheesh!

*Fizzle* *Sizzle*
Post edited December 23, 2014 by KiNgBrAdLeY7