It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
svmariscal: Funnily enough, we have such a 'paranormal phenomenon' here at work :)

I work in a very old building, it's a former military barracks converted to local administration offices. In some of the offices, the structure, roof design or whatnot is so weird that sound propagates in a very funny way, and sometimes you see some people talking a few metres in front of you, but the whispers of the conversation come from behind you. I guess it would be pretty scary should we not know about it.

avatar
Lionel212008: In the meanwhile, readers can check this link out: http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm
avatar
svmariscal: Thanks, it seems very interesting, I'll have a look at it.
That sounds quite cool, how does that work? Sounds like you could have some fun with that!
Just pointing out that ghosts are not "generated" by vibrations or other physical effects. Even if people feel weird in some environments, the specific meanings that are attributed to them are the most endorsed available pre-existing belief. Just like some lights in the sky may be angels or flying saucers depending on the current fashion, weird half-conscious vibrations can be felt as godly visitations, ghosts, interdimentional cthuluan pushes onto reality, ominous premonition, etc... People "believe" in ghosts more often (and before) these experiences, which function only as confirmation of the already present representations that serve as their "reading grid".

Ghosts have other causes. Either existence (I'm methodologically forced to include this hypothesis) or the sheer unthinkability of death and absolute loss and the immortality of memories (individual or collective).
Post edited April 01, 2014 by Telika
avatar
Telika: Just pointing out that ghosts are not "generated" by vibrations or other physical effects. Even if people feel weird in some environments, the specific meanings that are attributed to them are the most endorsed available pre-existing belief. Just lights in the sky may be angels or flying saucers depending on the current fashion, weird half-conscious vibrations can be felt as godly visitations, ghosts, interdimentional cthuluan pushes onto reality, ominous premonition, etc... People "believe" in ghosts more often (and before) these experiences, which function only as confirmation of the already present representations that serve as their "reading grid".

Ghosts have other causes. Either existence (I'm methodologically forced to include this hypothesis) or the sheer unthinkability of death and absolute loss and the immortality of memories (individual or collective).
Ghosts are people who died without playing King Of Dragon Pass, Sacrifice, Fallout and Baldur's Gate 2.
avatar
svmariscal: Funnily enough, we have such a 'paranormal phenomenon' here at work :)

I work in a very old building, it's a former military barracks converted to local administration offices. In some of the offices, the structure, roof design or whatnot is so weird that sound propagates in a very funny way, and sometimes you see some people talking a few metres in front of you, but the whispers of the conversation come from behind you. I guess it would be pretty scary should we not know about it.

Thanks, it seems very interesting, I'll have a look at it.
avatar
darthspudius: That sounds quite cool, how does that work? Sounds like you could have some fun with that!
I am not totally sure, but I guess it has to do with the ceilings, there are several dome-like structures put together in a rather unusual way. The effect is quite funny, and to be honest a little unpleasant too :-)

But we don't give it too much thought apart from the occasional newbie, the novelty wears off quickly.
avatar
Niggles: You have the scientists, you have the believers and u have the people who sit on the fence and say "Prove they exist!".....similar to extraterrestials ....
Actually, a scientist would say "I don't think they exist, until you show me reproducible proof that they do. Then I verify your findings and if they hold up, I'll support your opinion."
there is no such shit as ghosts, if there were bloody fukin murderers wouldn't run free
avatar
darthspudius: That sounds quite cool, how does that work? Sounds like you could have some fun with that!
avatar
svmariscal: I am not totally sure, but I guess it has to do with the ceilings, there are several dome-like structures put together in a rather unusual way. The effect is quite funny, and to be honest a little unpleasant too :-)

But we don't give it too much thought apart from the occasional newbie, the novelty wears off quickly.
My guess is that it utilizes carefully selected and well-positioned aspects of echo chambers, anechoic chambers and acoustic mirrors to do what it does.
Wasn"'t there a similar thread not long ago?

Anyway.. I don't believe in Ghosts as Dead people spirits, but I do believe in invisible spiritual forces..

Asian movies about Ghosts are terrible, even if it contradict my belief of no ghost from dead people, the Shutter (VO, not the Us remake) is one of the most frightening movie I seen in that sense.. Also one called "Silk" or something.. Brr!!! :o
avatar
koima57: Asian movies about Ghosts are terrible, even if it contradict my belief of no ghost from dead people, the Shutter (VO, not the Us remake) is one of the most frightening movie I seen in that sense.. Also one called "Silk" or something.. Brr!!! :o
I like a good Asian Horror film, they do creepy atmosphere the best.
avatar
koima57: Asian movies about Ghosts are terrible, even if it contradict my belief of no ghost from dead people, the Shutter (VO, not the Us remake) is one of the most frightening movie I seen in that sense.. Also one called "Silk" or something.. Brr!!! :o
avatar
darthspudius: I like a good Asian Horror film, they do creepy atmosphere the best.
I remember going to the cinema to see The Ring (the japanese original of course, not the lame US version), and some rows ahead there were a couple teenage girls making stupid jokes about the character's names (because they actually sound funny in spanish, puns and all that) and being annoying in general. Well, just when "the scene" happened (if you've seen the movie you'll know) me and my wife were chilled to the bone, but otherwise very pleased hearing them screaming in a true state of shock. We didn't hear them again for the rest of the movie :-D
I hope they are real for when my time is over, because I would love to fuck with people from the great beyond.

Nothing truly evil, more pranks than anything else. Writing "Get Out" in blood would be my first prank followed by slamming doors shut.

I don't believe in no Ghosts...or bigfoot, or Chucacabra, or any of that other nonsense.
Post edited April 01, 2014 by jjsimp
When my I was little, my grandmother once told me "It is the living you should be afraid of, not the dead"
avatar
darthspudius: I like a good Asian Horror film, they do creepy atmosphere the best.
avatar
svmariscal: I remember going to the cinema to see The Ring (the japanese original of course, not the lame US version), and some rows ahead there were a couple teenage girls making stupid jokes about the character's names (because they actually sound funny in spanish, puns and all that) and being annoying in general. Well, just when "the scene" happened (if you've seen the movie you'll know) me and my wife were chilled to the bone, but otherwise very pleased hearing them screaming in a true state of shock. We didn't hear them again for the rest of the movie :-D
AH Ringu was a brilliant film. I remember my first viewing, did it alienate me or what!
avatar
coxdr: I think you misunderstood my point I was trying to say science can not explain it. There are many things science can not yet explain. I feel it time it will be able to but as of yet it cannot. The process of why the body yawn is unknown to modern science as of last checked. Now as for another of where science could not observe something so they say it could not exist. Early medical science could not observe microrganisms so they were thought to not exist. People treated illness by leeches and other medical techniques. Just because these people could not observe these things did not mean they could not effect them. just because current science doesnt have the means to observe something doesnt mean it doesnt exist and cant exist.
There are certainly many unanswered questions in science. It's why people like me have jobs. However, ghosts aren't an unanswered question- they are just an idea some people have put forth then time and time again failed to produce any evidence to support. There isn't some indication that they exist but with lots of unanswered questions about the details- there's just lots of wild speculation (with absolutely no supporting evidence) by people who don't seem to even know how to put forth a scientific hypothesis, let alone test it.

As for not being able to observe certain things, while we didn't have the tools to observe the details of certain things in the past (and that's a never-ending process), we still could certain observe the overall effects (by virtue of those things being able to effect us). Science progresses through the identification of phenomenon that are not adequately explained by existing scientific theories. However, for this to happen you first need to actually observe such a phenomenon (and not in a "check out this shaky-cam footage!!!" kind of way), then rigorously test ways in which existing theories might explain the phenomenon. And if all the existing theories then fail to adequately explain it, only then do you get to start on the real challenge of trying to come up with novel hypotheses on what might be going on.

However, people making claims about ghosts rarely seem to have a phenomenon to observe to begin with. Then in the cases where there may indeed be such a phenomenon and it's rigorously tested it seems that invariably the phenomenon either can't be reproduced under controlled conditions, or it ends up being explained just fine by existing scientific theories (or it's just some douche-bag in a rubber mask who would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids). And after going through this dance time and time again, there comes a point where giving any meaningful consideration to every idiot's claim of "ghosts!" when their house is just settling really isn't worth anyone's time.

avatar
monkeydelarge: I don't think Dischord ever said, the scientific method is not suitable for the investigation of ghosts. I think he said, there is a possibility we simply lack the tool(hasn't been invented yet, maybe never will, hasn't been discovered) needed to be able to use the scientific method to prove that ghosts or real(or not). Think about it. 1000 years ago, could humans use the scientific method to prove the things we know are real, today? Hopefully, in the future, we will have the right tool to allow us to use the scientific method to prove ghosts are real because then society will start taking action against the ones who troll(haunt). :)
Well, when a tool gets developed that's capable of collecting evidence of phenomenon that existing theories can't explain and that some theory about ghosts can, then we can start seriously discussing the matter. But as long as the noise being generated just amounts to "There may be ghosts out there, but we just can't detect them yet", any discussion about them is about as pointless as a discussion about the color of Russell's teapot. Not to mention if we fast-forward 1000 years, and it turns out that despite all the new tech there's still no evidence of ghosts, I'm sure there will still be people making the exact same claim. There comes a time when, barring dramatic new evidence coming to light, it's time to stop giving serious consideration to something for which evidence has repeatedly failed to be produced. And for the topic of ghosts, that time passed quite a while ago.

avatar
DieRuhe: If not for science, I don't see any possible way to "prove" the existence of ghosts. But then again, what if suddenly many millions of people started seeing them regularly? If it was a common occurrence, would it then become "proved" simply by mass observation, with no "science" involved?
That millions of people were observing whatever it was they were observing would be a readily observable fact. The details of just what people were actually observing, determined through controlled observation, and putting forth and testing hypotheses on just what was occurring- that would be science.

avatar
nightrunner227: You're using science in the wrong way. Science uncovers evidence which is then analyzed to determine whether something is proven(?) or disproven. No evidence =/= disproven. Only counterevidence can disprove something.
Hi, professional scientist here (chemist). First off, what science actually involves is identifying an observed phenomenon, putting forth a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon, then putting that hypothesis to the test by seeing if the predictions it makes actually correspond to what is observed in experiments designed to test those predictions. Second, regardless of how many experiments and observations are consistent with the hypothesis it's still never proven (although after numerous such experiments the hypothesis will be regarded as having very strong supporting evidence, and it's predictions will widely be used towards practical purposes). Third, such a hypothesis can be disproved with only a single experiment; however, as long as the limits and where the hypothesis fails are understood it can still be useful (Newtonian mechanics has been disproved, but is still quite useful as long as it's used within the conditions where it's predictions are still valid). And finally, absence of evidence can serve as evidence of absence, provided there's enough of it. If I simply make the claim that rodents of unusual size don't exist because I've never seen one, that's not particularly strong evidence. However, if thousands of people scour the world over several decades looking for them and they all come up empty, that's much stronger evidence towards the hypothesis that they don't exist. Of course, that hypothesis could quickly be disproved if a rodent of unusual size suddenly jumps me, but that just goes back to what I said earlier and is precisely how science works.
avatar
coxdr: I think you misunderstood my point I was trying to say science can not explain it. There are many things science can not yet explain. I feel it time it will be able to but as of yet it cannot. The process of why the body yawn is unknown to modern science as of last checked. Now as for another of where science could not observe something so they say it could not exist. Early medical science could not observe microrganisms so they were thought to not exist. People treated illness by leeches and other medical techniques. Just because these people could not observe these things did not mean they could not effect them. just because current science doesnt have the means to observe something doesnt mean it doesnt exist and cant exist.
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: There are certainly many unanswered questions in science. It's why people like me have jobs. However, ghosts aren't an unanswered question- they are just an idea some people have put forth then time and time again failed to produce any evidence to support. There isn't some indication that they exist but with lots of unanswered questions about the details- there's just lots of wild speculation (with absolutely no supporting evidence) by people who don't seem to even know how to put forth a scientific hypothesis, let alone test it.

As for not being able to observe certain things, while we didn't have the tools to observe the details of certain things in the past (and that's a never-ending process), we still could certain observe the overall effects (by virtue of those things being able to effect us). Science progresses through the identification of phenomenon that are not adequately explained by existing scientific theories. However, for this to happen you first need to actually observe such a phenomenon (and not in a "check out this shaky-cam footage!!!" kind of way), then rigorously test ways in which existing theories might explain the phenomenon. And if all the existing theories then fail to adequately explain it, only then do you get to start on the real challenge of trying to come up with novel hypotheses on what might be going on.

However, people making claims about ghosts rarely seem to have a phenomenon to observe to begin with. Then in the cases where there may indeed be such a phenomenon and it's rigorously tested it seems that invariably the phenomenon either can't be reproduced under controlled conditions, or it ends up being explained just fine by existing scientific theories (or it's just some douche-bag in a rubber mask who would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids). And after going through this dance time and time again, there comes a point where giving any meaningful consideration to every idiot's claim of "ghosts!" when their house is just settling really isn't worth anyone's time.

avatar
monkeydelarge: I don't think Dischord ever said, the scientific method is not suitable for the investigation of ghosts. I think he said, there is a possibility we simply lack the tool(hasn't been invented yet, maybe never will, hasn't been discovered) needed to be able to use the scientific method to prove that ghosts or real(or not). Think about it. 1000 years ago, could humans use the scientific method to prove the things we know are real, today? Hopefully, in the future, we will have the right tool to allow us to use the scientific method to prove ghosts are real because then society will start taking action against the ones who troll(haunt). :)
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: Well, when a tool gets developed that's capable of collecting evidence of phenomenon that existing theories can't explain and that some theory about ghosts can, then we can start seriously discussing the matter. But as long as the noise being generated just amounts to "There may be ghosts out there, but we just can't detect them yet", any discussion about them is about as pointless as a discussion about the color of Russell's teapot. Not to mention if we fast-forward 1000 years, and it turns out that despite all the new tech there's still no evidence of ghosts, I'm sure there will still be people making the exact same claim. There comes a time when, barring dramatic new evidence coming to light, it's time to stop giving serious consideration to something for which evidence has repeatedly failed to be produced. And for the topic of ghosts, that time passed quite a while ago.

avatar
DieRuhe: If not for science, I don't see any possible way to "prove" the existence of ghosts. But then again, what if suddenly many millions of people started seeing them regularly? If it was a common occurrence, would it then become "proved" simply by mass observation, with no "science" involved?
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: That millions of people were observing whatever it was they were observing would be a readily observable fact. The details of just what people were actually observing, determined through controlled observation, and putting forth and testing hypotheses on just what was occurring- that would be science.

avatar
nightrunner227: You're using science in the wrong way. Science uncovers evidence which is then analyzed to determine whether something is proven(?) or disproven. No evidence =/= disproven. Only counterevidence can disprove something.
avatar
DarrkPhoenix: Hi, professional scientist here (chemist). First off, what science actually involves is identifying an observed phenomenon, putting forth a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon, then putting that hypothesis to the test by seeing if the predictions it makes actually correspond to what is observed in experiments designed to test those predictions. Second, regardless of how many experiments and observations are consistent with the hypothesis it's still never proven (although after numerous such experiments the hypothesis will be regarded as having very strong supporting evidence, and it's predictions will widely be used towards practical purposes). Third, such a hypothesis can be disproved with only a single experiment; however, as long as the limits and where the hypothesis fails are understood it can still be useful (Newtonian mechanics has been disproved, but is still quite useful as long as it's used within the conditions where it's predictions are still valid). And finally, absence of evidence can serve as evidence of absence, provided there's enough of it. If I simply make the claim that rodents of unusual size don't exist because I've never seen one, that's not particularly strong evidence. However, if thousands of people scour the world over several decades looking for them and they all come up empty, that's much stronger evidence towards the hypothesis that they don't exist. Of course, that hypothesis could quickly be disproved if a rodent of unusual size suddenly jumps me, but that just goes back to what I said earlier and is precisely how science works.
That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
Post edited April 02, 2014 by darthspudius