The problem is the term 'rental' is being applied as a hypothetical scenario, not something that is determined to happen. A lot of hypothetical scenarios exist in life, it's hypothetical I can get kill by a car crossing the street, it doesn't mean I'm never going to cross the street because the possibility of the scenario exists. It is hypothetical that Steam is going to go out of business and then on top of that it's hypothetical that Valve will go back on what Gabe said about patching out the client should that ever happen. I mean, I understand your (and others on here) viewpoint and if the day comes where I don't have access to my 300+ game library because Valve went out of business, I'll be right in line with you (along with millions upon millions of people, including developers and publishers). But I cannot subscribe to the fact that what I own is a rental for some imaginary, maybe it will happen, date in the future where Steam may be shut down and I may be denied access to my library.

Steam going out of business is not a hypothetical, it is the way of the world, it just might not matter to us if entropy catches up with us first.

Unless you can produce a legally binding document saying that Steam will do that then them not patching the client is also the default (and thus to be assumed) and thus YOU are the one playing with hypotheticals here.

You will be in the "I told you so" line with me? That would be hypocritical of you given your attitude here.

And what exactly do you think you own on Steam?

I ask because you whole argument rests on your unhappiness with my colloquial use of the term rental to describe a complicated legal relationship by what I perceive to be its effect yet in that sentence you are using the word own in exactly the same way (to describe a complicated legal relationship by what you perceive to be its effect).

If you are going to criticise me for doing so I expect you to hold yourself to your own linguistic standard of exactitude... unless you are a hypocrite, of course, in which case I would see no reason to keep conversing with humpty dumpty.

Again, I go back to my original post. Give me the date, heck even the year when you think this is going to happen, with proof and I'll buy it. Until then, you keep living in a tin foil world where something 'might' happen and I'll keep enjoying playing new releases digitally. We'll see who gets the better end of the deal 5 years or even 10 years from now.


I think I own the games I bought. You know why I think this? Because a game I bought on Steam 2, 3 heck even 5 years ago is still available to me. I can still install that game on my PC and play it today. And nobody, not Valve or anyone else has told me I don't have the right to play the games that I bought on Steam. Therefore in my mind I own it, whether that's the 'legal or correct' definition of the term.

First, you seem to think that a return date is necessary for it to be a rental. It is not. For example you can have DVD rental by post which does not specify a date for when the movie/game needs to be returned. Would it make sense to keep the DVD indefinitely? No, and I am not claiming it doesn't. I am simply pointing that you are using the lack of existence of a known return date to claim that it is not a rental. By the same argument, because there is no known return date for DVD rental by post then it is not rental either.

Obviously it is bogus, because while there may not be a specified date there is still a date (which hopefully will be after we die) as nothing lasts forever.

Second, you say: "and I'll buy it".

Buy what? I am not selling anything. I described how I perceived the relationship I have with the games on my Steam shelf. I did not say or try to convince anybody that they should view things the same way I do, quite the opposite (reread my first reply to you).

It is you who, by taking offense at my use of the word rental (and its cognates), are trying to convince me to use different words.

Granted you are doing it in a spectacularly poor way as even if you were to convince me that rental is a poor way to describe my relationship to the games I have in my Steam library you still would have to do all the work of convincing me that your favourite word use is better, as there could be another word more apt than either we are using.

Rather than attacking my position and hoping that if you convince me of the unsoundness of it I will by default agree with yours you would be much better served giving arguments why your position is, in your view, better.

And not just better for you, as, unlike me, you are trying to convince others of the rightness of your view.

Once again, unlike me you assume your way should be prescriptive rather than descriptive.

You assume that buying games new is the bast way to enjoy games for everyone. It isn't.

I do not doubt that it is for you and many others, but whether one gets the better end of the deal or not has to be judged against what they personally consider a good deal.

You seem to consider playing games as close to their release date to be the best of the deal. Fine with me, but I generally don't care whether I play a game on day 1, day 30 or day 700. And when for a given game I want to play it close to its release date then nothing prevents me from doing so.

Of course if one where to compare my deal against your best deal standard then it wouldn't pass it, but who cares? It's not my standard and you have not put forth any argument why it should be yet expect me to accept it as the only (or best) way to enjoy games?

I have not put forwards arguments for my standard either but I do not expect anybody else to accept it and I do not care whether your way to enjoy games passes it or not. Also you have not asked about it either (unlike the rental thing).

In your first post you asked me to "have some facts to back it up", so I am going to hold you to that standard.

You claim that you own games on Steam, please provide proof that you are the copyright owner of the games that you claim to own.

In your mind. Just like in my mind it is a rental.

That's the problem with you. You attacked me for describing how I see Steam games in my mind, holding myself to a high standard of exactitude while yourself using the same loose standard that I was using. I made sure in my first reply to point out that it was 1. my view and 2. that others are free to view things differently.

I have no problem with you seeing games in your Steam library as you owning them, you are the one who has a problem with me seeing games in my Steam library as renting them.

You either have a double standard where you expect me to hold to a higher standard than you hold yourself to, or you want me to use as loose a standard as you but in the same way as you, i.e. you want to prescribe how I should feel, or you are an inane twerp who despite having a perfectly functioning brain seems unable to use it properly to see the logical conclusion of his thoughts?

In the first case you're a hypocrite, in the second an asshole, in the last a very silly person.

Note that the first two are not necessarily mutually exclusive with the last (which you have already amply proved applied to you).

Maybe you're not doing it but I see plenty of posters on this site that have no issue trying to push their own Steam bias onto others. You see it as a rental and that's fine. Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. And nobody is calling you names either (as you seem to have no problem doing).

You say 'nothing lasts forever' which to me then you should apply to anything, especially digital. Yes that includes games that GoG sells as well. While you may be correct that nothing is infinite, it exists in the here and now and that for me as well as countless others, is enough.

Which is why I tried to make clear in my first response to you that it was what I felt, not what others must feel.

Then why the demands that I " have some facts to back it up"?

The first one I can put down to miscommunication, but the one after I made myself clear?

Do you think you weren't rude just because you avoided using swear words? Hell, you even called me a conspiracy theorist ("you keep living in a tin foil world").

I tried explaining my position politely, glossing over your confrontational first post, and pointing out that unless you held yourself to the same standard then you were being hypocritical.

You responded by, in the same post, reiterating your demand that I hold myself to that standard ("Give me the date, heck even the year when you think this is going to happen, with proof ") while not using that standard yourself (" Therefore in my mind I own it, whether that's the 'legal or correct' definition of the term"), thus rushing headlong in the hypocrisy I warned you about.

When politeness and logic don't work, sometimes a rethorical slap in the face can get people thinking (why is he mad all of a sudden?).

Given that you now claim not to be trying to convince me of anything despite clearly asking me to justify my subjective feeling (after I made clear that they were subjective) it does seem to have had the desired effect.

Indeed, everything needs care and upkeep. For example a house needs a new boiler once in a while. The difference is that if I own the house I can change the boiler when I want and need to whereas when I rent I need to get the owner's permission before doing significant changes like that.

With GOG games I can back them up and reinstall them without asking anyone's permission.
With Steam games I must ask Steam for permission to do so (that it is done automatically by the Steam client is neither here nor there).

And for the right price it is enough for me too. It's just that the extra constraints between GOG and Steam makes the right price lower on Steam for me and make me view it as I do.

Just checked my Steam Library and it's still not there even though it's in my list of licenses. Maybe Sniper Elite V2 is just region blocked or something.

did you begin the install? - i know some prior free games havent shown up in library for some people without that, though, i also know it appears for some on reloading steam (bit like the "refresh" trick with gog). those are isolated cases though.
also, are you sure you're not mistaking installing sniper elite v2 for installing a bucket of KFC in your stomach?! O___o
- its almost monday!

Hehehehe... I'll try installing and see if that helps!

EDIT:
I can install it but when I uninstall, the game disappears from my list.

*shouts to everyone

ISOLATE HIM IN A SUITCASE!!!!!

Can it be that you have LIBRARY - INSTALLED selected in the menu? Have you tried selecting LIBRARY - ALL GAMES?

Yeah. The game isn't listed just the same.

Thank you for taking the time to construct a logical, well thought out argument, that was delivered quite reasonably(we all have our own subjective standards of 'reason') regarding Steam and the concept of thinking of the games as rentals. You expressed yourself far more eloquently than I would have, and spent time explaining your view on obviously deaf ears.

Your posts, in particular the part I quoted, jumped out to me as it is the second time I have heard the laws of thermodynamics referenced in discussion this year in a topic where I would not expect to see them. I know nothing of these concepts from a learned perspective but am curious, especially after my father referenced Ilya Prigogine and 'order out of chaos in thermodynamics' in response to me writing to him during a period of internal crisis.

Can you suggest a resource that is an "Idiots guide to thermodynamics" or a something simplified to start reading up on these concepts?

Edit: and re Sniper Elite V2, thanks again Stooner as MunkiSiren had great fun playing it :) I'm not the fondest of realistic games based on humans resolving issues through violence but it certainly added something new to the genre that I haven't seen before with that slow motion bullet camera ripping through people.

Already Preordered! Collector's Edition with real bloodstains and free nylon rope!

...kidding.

(sort of)