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General discussion (archive)Smart Meters. Anyone Else Refusing Installation?(102 posts)(102 posts)
(102 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 28, 2012
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SimonG: Where is our local conpiracy nut when you need him?
Which one? IIRC we have a variety to choose from.
Posted February 28, 2012
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SimonG: Where is our local conpiracy nut when you need him?
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GameRager: Which one? IIRC we have a variety to choose from.
There was one in particular. I remember a thread about US troops training to kill the local population or something like that.
Posted February 28, 2012
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Lone3wolf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JNFr_j6kdI < 4.5 minutes.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/are-smart-meters-real-time-surveillance-spies

http://www.federaljack.com/?p=146557

http://farmwars.info/?p=6530

I neither endorse, nor condone, the views in these links. But I do on occasion laugh at, or facepalm at them ;)
You know, I endorse a smart grid but there are some valid privacy concerns with it. A utility just needs to sell electricity. How they structure that is up to them. They don't need to know what people are doing with the power once it's sold though.

On the customer side, if you don't like it, learn how to live off grid, or at least learn how to decrease your dependency by conserving energy. The best watt saved is the one that's never used. No matter how efficient a piece of equipment is, you can't beat that. It's not as hard as one might think. It just takes some planning.
Posted February 28, 2012
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KyleKatarn: You know, I endorse a smart grid but there are some valid privacy concerns with it. A utility just needs to sell electricity. How they structure that is up to them. They don't need to know what people are doing with the power once it's sold though.

On the customer side, if you don't like it, learn how to live off grid, or at least learn how to decrease your dependency by conserving energy. The best watt saved is the one that's never used. No matter how efficient a piece of equipment is, you can't beat that. It's not as hard as one might think. It just takes some planning.
Back home the local electric company gave the library a dozen or so kill-a-watts for check out. I was surprised that despite the chiding from the electric company there was very little electricity that was being wasted. I think found a total of 42w that was arguably being wasted. Of which only 12 actually was. Most of the things I plugged it into weren't drawing any power at all unless they were turned on.

Even my big computer was mostly at 120w.
Posted February 28, 2012
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KyleKatarn: You know, I endorse a smart grid but there are some valid privacy concerns with it. A utility just needs to sell electricity. How they structure that is up to them. They don't need to know what people are doing with the power once it's sold though.

On the customer side, if you don't like it, learn how to live off grid, or at least learn how to decrease your dependency by conserving energy. The best watt saved is the one that's never used. No matter how efficient a piece of equipment is, you can't beat that. It's not as hard as one might think. It just takes some planning.
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hedwards: Back home the local electric company gave the library a dozen or so kill-a-watts for check out. I was surprised that despite the chiding from the electric company there was very little electricity that was being wasted. I think found a total of 42w that was arguably being wasted. Of which only 12 actually was. Most of the things I plugged it into weren't drawing any power at all unless they were turned on.

Even my big computer was mostly at 120w.
most computers run at low wattage even when playing games they don't spike too high except you know NV gpus... folding@home etc however...
Posted February 28, 2012
On a personal note; my dad is an engineer with Hydro. I happened to learn today that he has refused installation as well. Funny.
Post edited February 28, 2012 by Darling_Jimmy
Posted February 29, 2012
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KyleKatarn: You know, I endorse a smart grid but there are some valid privacy concerns with it. A utility just needs to sell electricity. How they structure that is up to them. They don't need to know what people are doing with the power once it's sold though.

On the customer side, if you don't like it, learn how to live off grid, or at least learn how to decrease your dependency by conserving energy. The best watt saved is the one that's never used. No matter how efficient a piece of equipment is, you can't beat that. It's not as hard as one might think. It just takes some planning.
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hedwards: Back home the local electric company gave the library a dozen or so kill-a-watts for check out. I was surprised that despite the chiding from the electric company there was very little electricity that was being wasted. I think found a total of 42w that was arguably being wasted. Of which only 12 actually was. Most of the things I plugged it into weren't drawing any power at all unless they were turned on.

Even my big computer was mostly at 120w.
I'm not quite sure I'm following you. I'm assuming you're looking to eliminate standby power? We called it phantom load. What I was getting at was something like properly designed, well-insulated housing with passive solar heating and eliminating whole electronics and appliances (especially any redundant ones), not just unplugging things when you're not using them.

You (speaking generally, excluding people who don't need life support) really don't need a lot of electricity to live. Every house should have at least a refrigerator with a freezer. Get a few LED lights and a toaster oven and you're pretty much set for what you need if you have a properly designed place to live. Most computers aren't a big power hog like you say. A small solar array or hydropower with a few deep cell batteries can power what you need.
If people want a bunch of other electronic doodads, well, that's up to them. Just don't bitch and moan about how much you're electric bill is (speaking generally again.)

The reason I like a smart grid is because if it's restructured the way I would like it to be, off-grid isn't quite as appealing to some folks anymore. Right now you'd get laughed at for suggesting to anyone interested in installing a renewable energy system to go anything above the net metering limit, and rightfully so. Selling at an avoided cost is like giving away power. You're neighbors won't know you did it and the electric company won't thank you.

In my restructured grid, anyone could sell power on the grid. Now I have something to convince that farmer putting up a couple new 80'x120' machine sheds to put solar roofs on them. I don't mean mounting an array on the roof where it could cause leakage problems, I mean something that is the roof. Now I can convince someone replacing the shingles on their existing roof to use solar shingles. Now a community can sell power to each other or share it with each other on the decentralized grid. If it might not only pay for itself in the long run but also could make people a little bit of money, I have a great tool to try to convince people to increase supply on the market. Those old generation plants aren't all going to go under either. The steel mill needs something that can handle its large instantaneous demand. As for the electric company? Well, they'll have a connection fee for maintaining the power lines and being system operators.

These are my ideals though. If utilities (especially vertically structured ones) go to time of use pricing and don't allow any competition, yeah, it'll probably get abused.

Oh yeah, btw, how do you like those kill-a-watts? I've been meaning to order a couple to try them out. I doubt they do much data logging but I think they'd still be helpful.
Post edited February 29, 2012 by KyleKatarn
Posted February 29, 2012
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KyleKatarn: I'm not quite sure I'm following you. I'm assuming you're looking to eliminate standby power? We called it phantom load. What I was getting at was something like properly designed, well-insulated housing with passive solar heating and eliminating whole electronics and appliances (especially any redundant ones), not just unplugging things when you're not using them.
That's precisely what I was looking for. I did find a few things that were using power just by being plugged in, but in general I was pleasantly surprised by how little

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KyleKatarn: Oh yeah, btw, how do you like those kill-a-watts? I've been meaning to order a couple to try them out. I doubt they do much data logging but I think they'd still be helpful.
It works fine, the amount of logging depends upon the model. I was using the model P4400 it does a fine job, for things like refrigerator, leave it plugged in for probably 24 hours and it will give you a few measures. I think they're about $20 for that model now. For me it's not worth owning one, but I'm sure that there are others for which it's a useful expenditure.
Posted February 29, 2012
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KyleKatarn: Oh yeah, btw, how do you like those kill-a-watts? I've been meaning to order a couple to try them out. I doubt they do much data logging but I think they'd still be helpful.
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hedwards: It works fine, the amount of logging depends upon the model. I was using the model P4400 it does a fine job, for things like refrigerator, leave it plugged in for probably 24 hours and it will give you a few measures. I think they're about $20 for that model now. For me it's not worth owning one, but I'm sure that there are others for which it's a useful expenditure.
Ok. I'll probably order a couple. If nothing else, I can loan them out.
Posted March 04, 2012
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hedwards: It works fine, the amount of logging depends upon the model. I was using the model P4400 it does a fine job, for things like refrigerator, leave it plugged in for probably 24 hours and it will give you a few measures. I think they're about $20 for that model now. For me it's not worth owning one, but I'm sure that there are others for which it's a useful expenditure.
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KyleKatarn: Ok. I'll probably order a couple. If nothing else, I can loan them out.
Do some research. There's new models for sale by a number of companies today. The Killawatt is good, but it kind of assumes you know the basics about power and physics. You can't just hand it to someone without showing them how to use it.

It also is no good for checking your dryer's draw or your hot water heater, which both tend to be big. It's also a big fat mofo and may not fit in some places where people have managed to plug in their devices.

Still, using one of these is totally worth it just for piece of mind when your energy bill is way too high. You can eliminate your appliances as a culprit (or deal with the bad actors) and then work on improving insulation, cleaning out your dryer hose/venting, conserving hot water, and cleaning out your heaters (depending on what type you have).
Post edited March 04, 2012 by orcishgamer
Posted March 04, 2012
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KyleKatarn: Ok. I'll probably order a couple. If nothing else, I can loan them out.
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orcishgamer: Do some research. There's new models for sale by a number of companies today. The Killawatt is good, but it kind of assumes you know the basics about power and physics. You can't just hand it to someone without showing them how to use it.

It also is no good for checking your dryer's draw or your hot water heater, which both tend to be big. It's also a big fat mofo and may not fit in some places where people have managed to plug in their devices.

Still, using one of these is totally worth it just for piece of mind when your energy bill is way too high. You can eliminate your appliances as a culprit (or deal with the bad actors) and then work on improving insulation, cleaning out your dryer hose/venting, conserving hot water, and cleaning out your heaters (depending on what type you have).
Well, I already know how to take measurements. I'm pretty sure I can already do most of what they can with my voltmeter. I was mostly curious to try them out to see what they could do. If I get familiar with them, I can probably explain to someone else how to use them.
Posted March 04, 2012
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orcishgamer: Do some research. There's new models for sale by a number of companies today. The Killawatt is good, but it kind of assumes you know the basics about power and physics. You can't just hand it to someone without showing them how to use it.

It also is no good for checking your dryer's draw or your hot water heater, which both tend to be big. It's also a big fat mofo and may not fit in some places where people have managed to plug in their devices.

Still, using one of these is totally worth it just for piece of mind when your energy bill is way too high. You can eliminate your appliances as a culprit (or deal with the bad actors) and then work on improving insulation, cleaning out your dryer hose/venting, conserving hot water, and cleaning out your heaters (depending on what type you have).
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KyleKatarn: Well, I already know how to take measurements. I'm pretty sure I can already do most of what they can with my voltmeter. I was mostly curious to try them out to see what they could do. If I get familiar with them, I can probably explain to someone else how to use them.
Right, well clearly you understand it all:) It's just surprising how many people regard their wall sockets as somewhat "magic". I mean, they know they pay their bill in KwH and all, but it doesn't make sense to them. It feels like pulling up to the gas station and trying to buy their gas by the "miles per gallon":)

I guess my only point was that it has a lot of buttons and yes, you'll have to show then which ones to press depending on what they're trying to test and how to decide whether the numbers are worth being concerned about or not:)
Posted March 04, 2012
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KyleKatarn: Well, I already know how to take measurements. I'm pretty sure I can already do most of what they can with my voltmeter. I was mostly curious to try them out to see what they could do. If I get familiar with them, I can probably explain to someone else how to use them.
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orcishgamer: Right, well clearly you understand it all:)
Oh come on. I didn't mean to be like that :) I don't have a degree in electrical engineering so I clearly don't understand it all. It is something I try to teach myself though.

I'll do some research :P
Posted March 04, 2012
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orcishgamer: Right, well clearly you understand it all:)
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KyleKatarn: Oh come on. I didn't mean to be like that :) I don't have a degree in electrical engineering so I clearly don't understand it all. It is something I try to teach myself though.

I'll do some research :P
Nah, I wasn't being snarky, I just knew you'd worked for a power company, I assume anyone who does so has way beyond a layman's understanding of how this shit works. I'm just continually surprised by people who don't give a shit about understanding anything (I've long ago concluded that I'm terribly weird for wanting to know everything, especially when the pursuit is ultimately impossible and even were it possible, unimportant in the end from a nihilistic sense - still, the pursuit provides some of those rare moments of pleasure for me so I do it anyway).
Posted March 04, 2012
Nope. We let them install the meters and that was that. Wireless frequencies are all around us as are polluting toxins.

How anal are you going to get? Do you also not use a microwave, wireless network or a cell phone while encasing yourself in protective wrap to shield you from radio frequencies all around you everywhere you go?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Smart Meters. Anyone Else Refusing Installation?(102 posts)(102 posts)
(102 posts)