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General discussion (archive)Should End-Game Bosses be a thing of the past?(62 posts)(62 posts)
(62 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 19, 2012
They work in some games and don't work in others. Quality developers know when to use them.
Posted December 19, 2012
Yeah, I'm in the "depends, but get rid of them stupidly high HP and strength dudes" camp. Battles based on skill are the most important thing. If I'm playing an RPG, get to the last boss and find out I have to grind for half an hour... no thanks. Much rather use my brain than mindless muscle reflexes.

Multi-stage skill-based fights are great.

That said, I do think we need to get past the "every game needs a boss" mentality.
Posted December 19, 2012
They definitely should stay but they need to adjust to what games are like these days. I mean the latest trend is to make the so called cinematic experience and story oriented gameplay so it would be a bit weird to have bosses just for sake of having bosses, they need to fit into the story well. That includes their power levels. It's somewhat funny when a boss is presented as an omnipotent evil mastermind and superwarrior on top of that if you plan to make a sequel where the boss is supposed to be even more badass.
Anyway conclusion of any kind of story doesn't necessarily require a boss so putting a boss in a game these days should be thought out thoroughly.
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KneeTheCap: Well, Fallout did have a nice boss fight at the end, no?
Well you can win the game never even seeing the master or his lieutenant.
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Skunk: RAGE would've been so much better without the final boss.
The dude everyone talked about but noone actually saw him ?
Post edited December 19, 2012 by XYCat
Posted December 20, 2012
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ellynandroid: Multi-stage skill-based fights are great.
Unless you keep failing at stage 6, and then have to repeat the first 5 stages to get to that point again each time.
Posted December 20, 2012
Cheap bosses should be a thing of the past. Especially ones like that *cheap* wolf boss in Dark Souls...seriously, a huge sword wielding wolf? FFFFFFFUUUUU
Posted December 20, 2012
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ellynandroid: Multi-stage skill-based fights are great.
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kalirion: Unless you keep failing at stage 6, and then have to repeat the first 5 stages to get to that point again each time.
That's a classic. Luckily I don't bother with them anymore or find someway to circument.
Posted December 20, 2012
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JudasIscariot: Cheap bosses should be a thing of the past. Especially ones like that *cheap* wolf boss in Dark Souls...seriously, a huge sword wielding wolf? FFFFFFFUUUUU
Hey, you... just stay away from Sif ;-)

Now, seriously, those boss battles in Dark Souls are for the most part, epic and very entertaining, even when you die (although capra demon is a bit cheap) and a good example of "done right"... of course, they collate well with the overall gameplay of that particular game, so the approach might not work as good if applied elsewhere.
Post edited December 20, 2012 by Antaniserse
Posted December 20, 2012
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JudasIscariot: Cheap bosses should be a thing of the past. Especially ones like that *cheap* wolf boss in Dark Souls...seriously, a huge sword wielding wolf? FFFFFFFUUUUU
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Antaniserse: Hey, you... just stay away from Sif ;-)

Now, seriously, those boss battles in Dark Souls are for the most part, epic and very entertaining, even when you die (although capra demon is a bit cheap) and a good example of "done right"... of course, they collate well with the overall gameplay of that particular game, so the approach might not work as good if applied elsewhere.
The capra demon is cheap due to the fact that you have not only him to deal with but those annoying plague dogs AND the fact that you have very little room to maneuver and roll :D

Although I can't complain about this Dark Souls run. I managed to snag the helmet that you get from the armored boar in the Undead Burg on your way to get to the top bell, managed to defeat the two gargoyle guards AND get me a gargoyle tail axe AND defeat the both of them by myself with no summons. Thank goodness I have that Black Knight Sword :D
Posted December 20, 2012
I gotta admit, I did feel good when I finally beat the two end-bosses of Bunny Must Die (a game that should be on GOG btw)
Posted December 20, 2012
Should end-game bosses be a thing of the past? No.

I'm not saying that every game MUST have a final boss or anything, Boss battles CAN be a detriment if used in the wrong context (see Deus Ex HR), but IF a game gives me a tangible antagonist, I'd like the opportunity to kick his ass into a world of pain! Plain and simple. :p
Posted December 20, 2012
Well, I don't think there's really any reason that boss battles should be "a relic of the past," but at the same time I personally seldom enjoy them and probably wouldn't mind it if they went away.
Posted December 21, 2012
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kalirion: I gotta admit, I did feel good when I finally beat the two end-bosses of Bunny Must Die (a game that should be on GOG btw)
Do you mean Space Bunnies Must Die?
I remember I've been looking for this game for a logn time! Certainly wouldn't say no to it if it's on GOG.
Posted December 21, 2012
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kalirion: I gotta admit, I did feel good when I finally beat the two end-bosses of Bunny Must Die (a game that should be on GOG btw)
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Novotnus: Do you mean Space Bunnies Must Die?
I remember I've been looking for this game for a logn time! Certainly wouldn't say no to it if it's on GOG.
No, I mean this one:
http://www.desura.com/games/bunny-must-die
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93405836
Posted December 21, 2012
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Leroux: It's not the concept per se that is annoying, it's just bad implementation of the concept. Personally, I like the idea if it makes the finale exciting, challenging and fun. But it's a thin line between that and totally frustrating. And what from my experience often makes it frustrating is when such boss battles drag on for too long, meaning you'd have to invest a lot of time when retrying and doing a lot of things over again.

It's no fun to die for one small mistake after struggling to stay alive and slowly diminishing the HP of a boss for more 5-10 minutes or so. It's no fun if you can hardly harm a boss and there is no other trick but to slowly chip away at his HPs for all eternity. It's no fun if you have to fight more than three forms of a boss without saving when each battle in itself is epic already and you first have to learn how to defeat him, at high risk of life, like: barely survive first fight, get killed while learning how to manage second fight, repeat first fight, get killed in second again, repeat first fight, barely survive second fight, get killed while learning how to manage third fight, repeat first fight, repeat second fight, get killed in third fight etc. etc. This might work in some cases, but it becomes extremely repetitive and frustrating quickly, if the battles are not fun or drag on for too long.

I have a few games that I nearly played through and mostly enjoyed all the way but then abandoned because of the frustrating difficulty curve in the finale, and IMO that should not be the goal of a developer, to make the finale extra frustrating. It should be challenging, but still enough fun to make players want to try again instead of making them rage-quit.
I was going to write something similar, but then bumped into this and that pretty much explains my viewpoint. The very thing you describe on your last paragraph happened to me in Torchlight while playing the mage class. I pretty much saw the ending on Youtube, went "THAT'S IT!?!?" and never finished it. Also, I don't know how I managed to beat the meat circus back before they softened up the Psychonauts finale, but I really, really wanted to watch the end movie, which was the only reason I kept trying, though I felt thoroughly frustrated all the way through!
Posted December 21, 2012
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El_Caz: Also, I don't know how I managed to beat the meat circus back before they softened up the Psychonauts finale, but I really, really wanted to watch the end movie, which was the only reason I kept trying, though I felt thoroughly frustrated all the way through!
Argh, I'm still stuck at the point with the rising water and the slim mesh cages I keep missing when jumping at them, but one of the things with Psychonauts that annoys me the most is that even though there are savepoints within a level and you're allowed to save your game, if you quit and reload you always have to restart the whole level. I think I've "finished" Psychonauts last year already, but I'm still missing the finale. :(

I also haven't finished Aquaria yet, even though it's nothing compared to the frustration of the Meat Circus, but doing several boss fights in a row, some of them quite difficult, just isn't my cup of tea, it's discouraging. Maybe I'll retry next year.

And I've pretty much given up on Vagrant Story although I'm aching to see the story evolve, because the game currently throws one boss after another at me with only a few minutes of other gameplay in between, long before the finale, and even though I paid attention to carrying specialized weaponry with me, improving them when whenever possible and using them according to the bosses' weaknesses, I still cause hardly any damage to them on regular hits, that's so frustrating. :(
Post edited December 21, 2012 by Leroux
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General discussion (archive)Should End-Game Bosses be a thing of the past?(62 posts)(62 posts)
(62 posts)