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Faithful: This sounds good on the surface, but it is like saying, only those who steal habitually or like it are, real thieves. But for you, if you went through the act of stealing and dislike it; then you would not be a thief.
If I steal I am a thief even if I say, "But I did not like it while I was doing it".

It's not like that at all. That implies that one is gay by mere virtue of their actions. Ones sexuality is defined by who you're attracted to. After all, you can be celibate and heterosexual, gay, bisexual, whatever.
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Faithful: This sounds good on the surface, but it is like saying, only those who steal habitually or like it are, real thieves. But for you, if you went through the act of stealing and dislike it; then you would not be a thief.
If I steal I am a thief even if I say, "But I did not like it while I was doing it".
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Nafe: It's not like that at all. That implies that one is gay by mere virtue of their actions. Ones sexuality is defined by who you're attracted to. After all, you can be celibate and heterosexual, gay, bisexual, whatever.

Disclaimer: I am not one to get caught up into an internet debates that never really have an ending, but just a lot of endless posts that never result in anything.
Let me respond by saying; It is like you saying; "I very much doubt a gay guy could turn, just as I couldn't turn gay."
That is like saying people that lived a homosexual lifestyle for years were not gay if they choose to leave that lifestyle. What were they all that time, heterosexual in denial?
and what about all the people who say they are gay but lived as heterosexual all their life and then changed? Are they real homosexuals?
I am not trying to get in a huge debate, but opinions are simply that, opinions. We may not agree here, but to say things that have no foundation under them is at best confusing for people.
As I said, I not one to write back and forth for ages and get nowhere, but it is good to talk about things forthrightly and in a civil manner.
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Faithful: I am not trying to get in a huge debate, but opinions are simply that, opinions. We may not agree here, but to say things that have no foundation under them is at best confusing for people.

Well, what ones sexuality is can be a confusing issue for some people - especially given the fact that there's often pressure not to be gay in many societies. That said, back to my original point - I wouldn't become gay just by performing homosexual acts. The reason I can say this is because I'm not attracted to men. The definition of homosexuality/heterosexuality is all about orientation - what you're attracted to, not what you do.
What I'm saying is sexuality is defined by your personal persuasion - it may not be always straightforward to identify a person as one way or another but that's not the issue. If a guy gets hooked on drugs and ends up selling his body for money, that doesn't make him gay - it makes him desperate for money.
Basically, since I'm heterosexual, there's nothing I can do to change that. I expect it's the same for most homosexuals, they are what they are - and even if they pretend to be straight to fit in, get married - hell even have kids, it won't change who they're attracted to. Other people may be completely oblivious but that's besides the point. Check the definition of heterosexual/homosexual - nowhere does it state that you need to partake in homosexual/heterosexual acts to classify - it's just who you're attracted to.
To respond directly to your points:
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Faithful: That is like saying people that lived a homosexual lifestyle for years were not gay if they choose to leave that lifestyle. What were they all that time, heterosexual in denial?

Who knows - if they're sexually attracted to their own gender, they're gay. If they're attracted to the opposite sex, they're straight. If they're attracted to both, they're bi-sexual or pan-sexual. Not always being able to define other peoples/our own sexuality doesn't change the fact that it's the physical attraction that defines your sexuality, not what you get up to. In most cases who you get it on with happens to be who you're attracted to, but obviously that's not always the case. There's a well known phenomenon in porn called "gay for pay" - guys who enter in to gay porn because they need the money, but they're not gay. Doing what they do doesn't make it so.
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Faithful: Tand what about all the people who say they are gay but lived as heterosexual all their life and then changed? Are they real homosexuals?

See above - entirely depends on who they're attracted to, but these things can get murky. Their history has nothing to do with.
Post edited March 02, 2009 by Nafe
a thief is a title, being homosexual is a life style.
;D
whether it is chosen or not is up to much debate. many people say that it's something that they're born with, if this is true then it's possible that it's a chemical imbalance that would lead someone to be homosexual, and theoretically it'd be cureable.
Of course, if it weren't true, a lot of gay people would have a lot of explaining to do. I personally think if it's your decision to be gay, then be strong in your convictions. I don't know, the idea of someone not wanting to be gay (if only for sexual reasons) and being gay, sounds a little ridiculous. Not saying it is, just the idea is a little hard to swallow.
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Weclock: Of course, if it weren't true, a lot of gay people would have a lot of explaining to do. I personally think if it's your decision to be gay, then be strong in your convictions. I don't know, the idea of someone not wanting to be gay (if only for sexual reasons) and being gay, sounds a little ridiculous. Not saying it is, just the idea is a little hard to swallow.

I'm sure there are countless homosexuals out there who, due to pressure/harassment/abuse from society would love to be straight but just aren't.
Not quite sure what you mean by gay people having a lot of explaining to do. Care to expand on that?
I really like the idea of there being a gay gene, just for the reason that some churches been responsible for trying to cure homosexuality by getting gay to marry/have kids and just avoid their homosexual urges. If there is a gay gene, they've inadvertently boosted the gay population by urging them to reproduce. Something about that just tickles me :).
Post edited March 02, 2009 by Nafe
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Nafe: Something about that just tickles me :).

In a gay way?
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Weclock: Of course, if it weren't true, a lot of gay people would have a lot of explaining to do. I personally think if it's your decision to be gay, then be strong in your convictions. I don't know, the idea of someone not wanting to be gay (if only for sexual reasons) and being gay, sounds a little ridiculous. Not saying it is, just the idea is a little hard to swallow.
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Nafe: I'm sure there are countless homosexuals out there who, due to pressure/harassment/abuse from society would love to be straight but just aren't.
Not quite sure what you mean by gay people having a lot of explaining to do. Care to expand on that?
I really like the idea of there being a gay gene, just for the reason that some churches been responsible for trying to cure homosexuality by getting gay to marry/have kids and just avoid their homosexual urges. If there is a gay gene, they've inadvertently boosted the gay population by urging them to reproduce. Something about that just tickles me :).

Explanations:
I'm tired of hearing the excuse "I was born that way." I'm not persecuting you, if you want to be gay, just be gay. If they can no longer use the excuse, then they'll have to explain why they lied to the people they did. :D
I'm sick of the cover up bullshit.
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Weclock: I'm tired of hearing the excuse "I was born that way.

So... When and why did you choose to be straight?
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Weclock: I'm tired of hearing the excuse "I was born that way.
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wbaric: So... When and why did you choose to be straight?
when I was 15, the reasons I care not to go into. :D
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wbaric: So... When and why did you choose to be straight?
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Weclock: when I was 15, the reasons I care not to go into. :D

The only 2 options I can think of involves finding a porn mag or being touched inappropriately by a member of the clergy...
The fact those are the 2 things I thought of first kind of shows you what kind of mind I have...
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Weclock: I'm sick of the cover up bullshit.

I guess I'd never thought about it that way. Come to think of it I can see how it could be a massive worldwide conspiracy reaching to the highest echelons of the gay community. We need Jack Bauer to break this thing wide open.
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Weclock: my girlfriend says she isn't for homosexuality, it's kind of odd that she has gay friends, and is friends with my brother. I don't understand why, and I've asked her and she says "it's not what god intended." and then I ask her "So you think these gay people are suffering in the afterlife?" and she's all "there is no afterlife." and I'm like "well if there is no afterlife what is the point of living and learning? why would there be a god?" and she's all "i don't know!"
Wow, that's quite a gal you got there Weclock. ;)
Personally I don't think we are going to reach a resolution in the issue of free expression any time soon. Until the substantial amount of people on XBL will grow the fuck up, compared to which a coming of cyborg Lenin is more likely to happen...
she's only been this crazy as of late, she's been on a lot of different medicines for a lot of different reasons.
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Weclock: So... When and why did you choose to be straight?when I was 15, the reasons I care not to go into. :D

Personally, I never had to make that "choice". I never felt the need to ask myself that question. The first time I remember being in love was when I was 8. It was a girl, and it was always girls. I never felt, for a boy, the stress, the fear and the feeling of joy associated with love. Not even remotely.
When sex became a subject of interest, I never thought about doing anything with a boy. Me and my friends were joking about it, like all teenagers, but it was just jokes, (sometimes they were mean jokes). There was some curiosity, mainly for comparison purpose, but I never had an erection while thinking about what I could do with another boy.
Now that I am adult... Well, nothing changed! I still might look at other men's body for comparison purpose - although now it's more about abs and fat than penis size, but I still feel absolutely nothing for men. I simply can't imagine how I could feel joy while holding a man's hand. Being more aware of sexuality, more rational (I'm aware that a mouth is a mouth) and knowing people who are gay, I obviously thought and discussed about it from an intellectual point of view, but the idea is still simply repulsive to me. I can force myself to think about it, but it's not a "intellectual" thought, not an "emotional" thought.
I know what I will say might upset you since you obviously are quite homophobic, I can assure you that I don't say this as some kind of insult, but don't you think that if someone had to "choose" at one point in his life, particularly if he was quite old, it might indicate that his sexuality is not as well define as he think it is?
Post edited March 03, 2009 by wbaric
hahaha, I'm homophobic? please, if you've sat through any of our IRC chats you'd have enough info to know that I'm far from homophobic, or entirely straight either.