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General discussion (archive)RTS vs. Turn-Based(62 posts)(62 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 18, 2011
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Npl: against the computer I wouldnt mind either, but against humans I prefer not having to wait for my move indefinitely.

That said I hate games like Starcraft 2 where you have to fight the UI more that anything, really... not able to zoom far out, no support for 2 views or screens.. why dint they just make an friggen mappack for the original starcraft? All for nothing else than pleasing their Starcraft 1 clientel that would lose their edge without having to zap across the map with keybinds.

A good RTS would put an emphasis not only on planning your strategy but executing it aswell (if your plan is an diversionary attack you will just need to be able to control and react on both fronts), without getting in your way. Supcom is a great example for this (the best so far), you can plan ahead by qeueing up orders and buildings and then focus where its needed. Automation and a good UI is the key.
Any design limitations stuck into SC2 is almost surely a direct result of their "e-sport" idiocy. This is the part where they've made it less enjoyable for 90% of the playerbase in order to keep it "fair" for the e-sport portion. It seems outside the oft maligned campaign play (which to be fair, a lot of folks still enjoyed playing) there isn't much for a casual person to like about SC2 (at least in comparison to the SC2 that could have been), even the designers halfway fessed up to this in an article I linked here on the forums a couple months ago.

Due to issues with so many heavy handed DRM schemes on PC I've literally played no recent RTSes. Are there any other contenders out there that sort of did it right? Did Dawn of War 2 pull it off (the original games rocked)? One can't say RTS is a dying genre given the massive sales of SC2, someone else must be making something that's pure awesome (think Total Annihilation style fun).
Posted July 18, 2011
I like and despise both. To be honest, my problem is similar to granny's, but a little different. I like real-time strategy, because it generally moves along at a nice clip. I like to build up a decent-sized force and then send them out to demolish whomever gets in my way. Unfortunately, my when things get hectic, my brain starts to chugging along, unable to respond quickly to what's happening. I'm actually surprised I ever finished Company of Heroes. There were quite a few times I just stopped controlling my guys and just hoped they were able to take care of themselves.

So you would think that turn-based would work for me. Give me the time to plan out what I'm going to do, stuff like that. And I've tried that. Not many times, but a few, and each time I've run into another problem: Turn-based strategy games are almost too slow for me. I have to be careful with them or I'll get bored quickly.
Posted July 18, 2011
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gyokzoli: RTS on GOG: Ground Control (actually it's more like tactical)
RTS not on GOG: Homeworld (this is absolutely the best in my opinion)

TBS: Age of Wonders series then Heroes of Might & Magic & King's Bounty series
Homeworld is the one RTS that for multiplayer you don't need an APM of 150-200 to be competitive as with Starcraft and the like.
Posted July 18, 2011
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orcishgamer: someone else must be making something that's pure awesome (think Total Annihilation style fun).
AI WAR: Fleet command. Indie. Supreme Commander basic but improved. In space.
Posted July 18, 2011
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orcishgamer: someone else must be making something that's pure awesome (think Total Annihilation style fun).
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Bodkin: AI WAR: Fleet command. Indie. Supreme Commander basic but improved. In space.
Hmm, with a long demo too, thanks for the link!
Posted July 18, 2011
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DukeNukemForever: Thanks for the information, that sounds interesting. I will wishlist it for now and take a closer look when it goes someday on sale.
You can have it if you give me your email or enable PMs so I can send you this code :P
Post edited July 18, 2011 by xyem
Posted July 18, 2011
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Bodkin: AI WAR: Fleet command. Indie. Supreme Commander basic but improved. In space.
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orcishgamer: Hmm, with a long demo too, thanks for the link!
Yes, it is quite long. Tutorials take about 5-6 hours, and 5(?) hours of normal campain... I bought it before i finished tutorial. It was really awesome. I hope you'll like it.

For others - http://arcengames.com/w/index.php/aiwar-downloads (demos)
Posted July 18, 2011
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DukeNukemForever: Thanks for the information, that sounds interesting. I will wishlist it for now and take a closer look when it goes someday on sale.
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xyem: You can have it if you give me your email or enable PMs so I can send you this code :P
Big thanks for your offer, but it would just be a waste of your generosity. At the moment I really don't have much time and patience to get into a game like this. Bug again, many thanks, I really appreciate that.
Posted July 18, 2011
Saw this video now i am sold on the game. But Ill wait a bit in case it comes up as a gem special.

Edit: Its about Dark Reign, forgot to mention that lol.
Post edited July 18, 2011 by kiva
Posted July 18, 2011
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kiva: Saw this video now i am sold on the game. But Ill wait a bit in case it comes up as a gem special.

Edit: Its about Dark Reign, forgot to mention that lol.
Yep, saw this too. That what I meant with different ways to play ;-) I really like this play this game videos, short but informative.
Posted July 18, 2011
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kiva: Saw this video now i am sold on the game. But Ill wait a bit in case it comes up as a gem special.

Edit: Its about Dark Reign, forgot to mention that lol.
You can have the copy I brought for DukeNukemForever if you want :P
Posted July 18, 2011
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xyem: You can have the copy I brought for DukeNukemForever if you want :P
Wow. Thanks. Ill take it. :D
Posted July 18, 2011
I don't like playing RTS or TBS games with random human players. The reason is pretty simple: They stop being about strategy, and how to exploit the game system for all it's worth.

A great example of that is HOMM3. I only tried that a few times in all the time I played the game due to bad experiences, but I actively followed the community to learn tips (just in case). One of the favorite techniques of players that eventually got a massive backlash was the Black Dragon Armageddon trick. Since Armageddon hits all units, and Black Dragons are immune to it, and Black Dragons were pretty much the fastest unit in the game, you could basically wipe out 70% of an army within a turn or two just by playing a keep-away game with some black dragons. Or just hit and run with them immediately surrendering/retreating after nailing the Armageddon. Then give that hero another black dragon, and do it again. And again. And Again. And Again.

That's not strategy. That's exploitation of a game system.

It's kind of like with fighting games. I won't trap an opponent in a corner, aim for an indefinite combo loop, or spam annoying attacks. I expect my opponent to hold those same gentlemanly standards. It's just...most don't leaving me angry when I'm done after being cheesed the entire fight.
Posted July 18, 2011
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Hawk52: I don't like playing RTS or TBS games with random human players. The reason is pretty simple: They stop being about strategy, and how to exploit the game system for all it's worth.

A great example of that is HOMM3. I only tried that a few times in all the time I played the game due to bad experiences, but I actively followed the community to learn tips (just in case). One of the favorite techniques of players that eventually got a massive backlash was the Black Dragon Armageddon trick. Since Armageddon hits all units, and Black Dragons are immune to it, and Black Dragons were pretty much the fastest unit in the game, you could basically wipe out 70% of an army within a turn or two just by playing a keep-away game with some black dragons. Or just hit and run with them immediately surrendering/retreating after nailing the Armageddon. Then give that hero another black dragon, and do it again. And again. And Again. And Again.

That's not strategy. That's exploitation of a game system.

It's kind of like with fighting games. I won't trap an opponent in a corner, aim for an indefinite combo loop, or spam annoying attacks. I expect my opponent to hold those same gentlemanly standards. It's just...most don't leaving me angry when I'm done after being cheesed the entire fight.
Yeah, I did something similar when I played the Devils in HoMM3.

If I recall correctly, you had to take over a capital in a limited amount of time (or perhaps I was just impatient) and I couldn't amass the proper army buildup so I just got the hero with Chain Lightning (blue guy), get a small army and would Chain Lightning/Surrender repeatedly.

Cheap trick, but it was vs the computer, not a human :P.

Frankly though, my worst abuses in gaming have been against a computer "AI".

What I'll usually do is save a game at a crucial time, then try various things and see how the computer reacts (more often then not, it will react in a totally deterministic way or otherwise randomly choose between a very small number of predictable patterns). More often then not, it won't react to a particular strategy well and then I'll just abuse it to win under crazy underdog circumstances that I couldn't pull off when playing vs a human.

Concerning the main topic, I like both. I find TBS are REAL strategy games (you can take as much time as you want to really plan everything) while RTS are more action/strategy hybrids and I don't mind action games either (as long as they are not too mindless and RTSs aren't).
Post edited July 18, 2011 by Magnitus
Posted July 18, 2011
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Npl: A good RTS would put an emphasis not only on planning your strategy but executing it aswell (if your plan is an diversionary attack you will just need to be able to control and react on both fronts), without getting in your way.
You can do that perfectly well in SC2. :p
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)RTS vs. Turn-Based(62 posts)(62 posts)
(62 posts)