Since this forum loves RPGs, I figure it's interested in RPG design.

I used to read the Usenet group rec.games.roguelike.development a lot, which is interesting for its insight into game design for both roguelikes and other games.

I was going through its archives out of pseudo-boredom and came across this post:

Why Stats Are Harmful

The author is talking about primary stats stats like Strength and Wisdom, and the problems they can cause when put into a game purely for their own sake. He argues they force developers to implement contrived gameplay mechanics just to make each stat useful, and that they are unnecessary in a computer game that can have a whole bunch of stats that each transparently control a specific mechanic.

Really, the reason this caught my eye is Skyrim dropping attributes (primary stats) and the reaction to this. Yeah, you can call it dumbing down, but it arguably makes sense since character development in the Elder Scrolls series has always been more about the secondary skills anyway, aside from Arena. Basically, I'm wondering if Skyrim would have been forgiven for dropping attributes if it, like, brought back spears and creature languages.

(Understand that I don't own Skyrim since I'm still waiting for the GotY edition to come out and also be on sale.)

Ability scores are as much an essential part of roleplaying games as elves are. That is to say: they're not, but you'll usually find them there anyway.

you know what's REALLY harmful?

Shitty RPG's without any depth

Skyrim was another victim of "Dumbing down" - the game had even less depth than oblivion

Bethesda's thinking seems to be that the further a series progresses - the less features it has to have

Yeah it makes sense what you are saying.

I like the way on the ES games also where the more you use a certain skill you become more efficient in it. On Skyrim when you level you get a choice of Magica, Health or Stamina, this literally just ups one of them and then you select a perk as such in one of the many skill areas.

Also thinking about it, on the older RPG's where you up strength etc. To increase your strength by 2 points, surely the character would have to go away and work out for a few weeks to adequately be able to do this! I know that is taking it to the extreme and they are high fantasy games. From being able to wield a large sword with 2 hands barely to be able to bear the large sword single handed with a shield in the next breath because of 1 point in strength.

I also found that when playing some of the older RPG's I was always thinking on stats and what would be required to be able to wear that new set of armour or weapon sitting in my inventory. It can slightly detract from what you are playing.

I do still love playing the old RPG's to this day but do think they have come a long way for the better in a lot of cases since the awesome classics like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale series

Now must go busy playing through IWD 2 and Neverwinter Nights again!

Personally I've always thought, that every stat, that is presented in a RPG should have a direct influence in some aspect of the game.

I've always loved Arcanum dearly just because, if you do a character, who is charismatic but dumb, not only is the speech patter of the character influenced but also the way people treat you.

If there's no direct influece, it always feels dumb to give atributes.

Stats are good as long as they are well-implemented and do something. Like in Fallout games (I did NOT use stat-increasing perks in F3 and New Vegas... Were they even present in New Vegas?). Stats actually directly influenced many aspects of the game, usually conversations options, but striking with a hammer that you were barely able to carry was kind of useless. And as far as RPGs go, conversation options are also what I like stats being used for.

I don't really care about combat and gameplay mechanics all that much, but when a game gives me a chance to create an intelligent, charismatic bastard and the game world reacts to it accordingly, I'm probably going to enjoy that game. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Skyrim dropping stats - diseases and such directly influenced those in previous games, and, more importantly, essential needs mods. All they can do now is reduce mana / health / stamina

This. :D

Oh, and I could very well live with RPGs that don't feature elves. ;)

I don't see how attributes are harmful in any way. I mean, some folks are stronger than other folks... representing that in-game is just another way to make people (or characters) different from each others. RPGs are not like playing checkers, after all. Sure, skills and attributes and so on can be implemented badly, but there's nothing wrong with them on a fundamental level. Ultimately, you HAVE to be able to differentiate between characters' characteristics on some level, or what's the point in even having characters at all?

In my experience, especially with pen&paper RPGs, having every character be functionally identical makes things extremely dull. Diversity of skills and abilities not only lends strength to a party, but makes for more interesting stories and gameplay. In another sense, your characters may have some sort of flaw or limitation that's inherent to them (like being sickly, or having vertigo, or a peanut allergy, etc) that can provide an opportunity for growth and/or conflict. In many ways we are defined by our flaws just as much as by our strengths, and to make everything uniform (even if it's just uniformity through a lack of rules) can greatly detract from the entire experience.

Stats are only a problem when they try to shoehorn stats into a game where that stat really should not be. The stats needs to fit within the confines of the game, and the game needs to be built with those stats in mind. Arcanum is an excellent example of this done right, where each and every stat is at least meant to be important (there are balance issues in Arcanum, serious ones, but the theory is sound). You would not try to force a Cha stat into a game like Diablo, but in a game like Planescape, it makes perfect sense. Stats helps define a character's more or less inherent strength and weaknesses, while skills represents what he/she/it has learnt. Remove stats and you remove parts of what defines your character.
That is not to say that there are not good systems where stats are taken out of the equation, but for Skyrim it felt like something was missing. The perk trees were a nice addition, but I would liked to have had stats as well.

That's true for Pen & Paper RPGs and it could be fun in CRPGs, too, if weak stats would actually be treated as more than just weak stats, but most CRPGs don't do that, and I think there lies the problem. They import the stats from P&P but don't import the interactivity that the dungeon master or the players in P&P can provide, reacting to weak stats with stories or funny episodes or balancing them out. In most CRPGs a character with weak stats just makes the game more difficult and more frustrating. They just reward good stats and punish bad ones, it's more like a game of chess than about storytelling.

Arcanum might be an exception, since NPCs actually react to the player character's stats and clothing and reward the player even when the player character is 'punished', e.g. the reactions of NPCs to a very dumb player characters can be quite funny while NPCs might frown upon you wearing a piece of armor with great stats because they think it's too revealing, uncivilized or indecent.

hm stats. I think divinity 2 handled them relatively well. I also loved reading the descriptions of your stats as you level up. It was kind of funny.

I really, really like having stats in RPGs. They are not required, and possibly they are not even the best system for the medium, however something about having transparent numerical values for everything pleases the turn-based war-gaming min-maxer in me. I am one of those folks that actually finds character generation half the fun of an RPG. I actually LIKE having to research and plan my characters for hours during character generation to get it to do exactly what I want by the end of the game.

This is not to say I dislike RPGs without ability scores or other statistics. I am not even saying that the existence of statistics make an RPG a better roleplaying experience; in fact they may even detract from a good RP story in some cases by breaking the flow to do number crunching. I am merely saying that much of the reason I got into Dungeons & Dragons in the '80s, and thus into roleplaying at large, is because it had tomes filled with stats and numbers. I liked it then, and I like it now.

I can do without stats in video games and still have great fun playing them. However, a part of me will always want character sheets with long lists of, often arbitrary, numbers.

I think he lost the point he was trying to make.

He was trying argue that stats were too easy to come by and have too big an effect on too broad a range derivative character skills and abilities, but got too into trying to take apart the stat system and replace it with something with a lot of little very narrow bits that just make it more complicated for both the developers and players to judge without really addressing the actual problem.

Ehh, I couldn't read it all.

Stats are fine. I love stats, as long as they actually show improvement to the character.

But his idea of "Oh, they put stats in just to have them and then make up a reason for them" is, I think, a bit off. Isn't that kinda what creating a game is about? If your game/main character doesn't need a stat, don't put it in. If it's there, and you know your job, of course you're going to put in ways to utilize it. Duh.

It's ridiculous to think game designers just throw in stats "for show". Maybe some do; I don't know, I don't play every single game that comes out. But I know the good ones know what stats are for and how to utilize them.

I think Skyrim did a horrible job with that. If I'm constantly running around, one would imagine that my "running skill" (athletics) would improve - but now they don't even have it. I hate "perks" even though it's just a simpler way of doing stats.