Depends on what "state" you're talking about, doesn't it? Obviously you're talking about a democratic state, I think, but that ain't the only kind of "state", by a long shot, and their leaders are not freely elected either.

There are also several areas in the world where religion as a control mechanism has not failed and is very effective, or the religion has been hijacked by a totalitarian regime in the NAME of religion.

But as far as effectiveness goes, again, you can say the same about political ideologies and their shortcomings. There have been plenty of ideological revolutions and revolts.

Lol, better then my view. I tend to view Politicians and the hyper-political as people who failed Kindergarten. Hell, most kids I've seen know how to get along better with people different then they are then how people get when politically stirred.

I'd say that's kind of a plus for religion, nobody has any real authority. I you decide that you don't like the one you're in then leave, there is nothing really stopping you. All the places where you see widespread bloodshed over religious differences you'll find that it's state run religion, because then they really do have authority over you. The same with Atheism, state mandated Atheism has lead to the deaths of billions. It's just one more tool the corrupt and powerful can use.

I can't speak about others here, but I'm not arguing. I'm just having a little discussion, is all. :)

I'm not about to get into a heated argument/debate over politics and religion here. It's futile and a waste of time and energy. ;)

Yeah, I don't see any real arguing here.
Apart from all the social factors, such as family, friends, neighbours, etc. Hardly anyone consciously chooses their faith. People just go with the religion that was thrust upon them at birth. If they don't like it then they play down their involvement as much as they can without pissing people around them off. It's not that easy to walk away from. Especially if you're with one of the more cultish religions like Jehovah's Witnesses.

As for state mandated atheism causing billions of deaths, care to cite any examples of this?

Rulers enforcing so called state mandated atheism ( which isn't historically true ) were portraying themselves as deities to begin with. So it was in fact the religious mindset they were manipulating. On a more serious note, how do ya'll like magic undergarments and multiple wives? I relish the heat Romney will get about this shit, and how he like all Mormons will try to cleverly divorce himself from the zanier stuff in the religion.

Yeah, not arguing at all.

Well I'm just going from personal experience on how easy it is to leave an organized religion. Myself as well as many people I know had no issues with it. As to the deaths caused by atheism I count Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong among others. Yeah I know that in some footnote in a history book somewhere there is some refrence that suggest some horrible person may have belived in the existence of God, but that doesn't really persude me much given the grand scheme of what they did and the nature of the orders they gave.

Hitler was not an Atheist... Stalin was communist. These are not really relevant IMO.

I said elected officials make for a better control system than religion. It's not perfect by any means, just look at America today with corporate ownership of most politicians and voter ignorance and ambivalence corrupting the system.

I don't think any system is going to be flawless, like I already repeated from Navagon, we're humans and intrinsically flawed. I just personally believe democratic state rule is less flawed than religion. Obviously most agree or else we would be a theocracy. The problem is a lot of politicians, mostly conservatives but not all, try to act like religion is the end-all-be-all when it's not, and has proven ineffective when it was. The RNC ended with a statement from John Boehner about "church and family being where the real social assistance comes from." I find that disgustingly inaccurate in modern society, for good or ill.

At least McCain was human. Romney is ... something else entirely. The stunt they pulled at the RNC to shut Ron Paul out just proves that these people have no scruples, no morals, no second thoughts. The lies they portray are ridicilous, insane, completely mind-boggling. The "legitimate rape" thing I think was what pissed me off the most, no self-respecting woman in the nation should cast their vote for these slimebags after that.

Anyone who votes for this shell of a man is insane. The only way the ass backwards Republican Sect can wither and die is to have Obama win this election so handsomely that not even the most inbred, thumbless creationists can pass it by.

My thoughts: Romney made a speech. If you've followed the process of him becoming nominee, you'll notice there are quite a few instances where he supports something that his party is against. There was a stink raised back in April or so as I recall where he said that he supported raising the minimum wage. His party raised hell and he changed his mind. Healthcare as governer of Massachusettes, he implemented a plan similar to the Healthcare Law of 2010, now most every vocal big name conservative wants it abolished before it starts. Romney started quite a bit central, but he's running as a republican, and he wouldn't have support unless he acted like one. So that means anything he may have done that one would consider out of norm for his party, he's against that now. No gay marriage (an official party platform that came around before his recent convention nomination), small goverment, repeal healthcare law, slashes to popular federal programs and changes to the tax law for big business and high income earners.

If he stuck his ground as a centralist, you know what, he might not have been all that bad, but he didn't. Now he's true blood conservative regardless of what anyone says, I can't say what his policy is anymore or what they used to be because he's been driven much further than what he started as. And frankly, it doesn't matter if it was Gingrich, Romney, Santorum, all of them in my eyes are deadly as hell for the lower classes. I'm a student, and a popular place to cut is education, that scares the fuck out of me given my tuition's gone up a couple hundred dollars and my loan amounts are shrinking. Businesses are souring left and right and disregulation caused all sorts of issues, one only has to look at events from China from the past few years to get an idea of what that does, in both labor and product, such as several different mass pet deaths and sicknesses caused by pet food processed in China, toothpaste causing sicknesses and toys containing lead and other toxic metals, including on false jewelry where it can be absorbed into the skin.

Obama frankly if he was able to do everything he said he would, it'd make all the difference in the world. He can't though, nobody can, I'll vote for him anyway because I still think my livelyhood is going to be far better with him in office than with Romney. I might be wrong, but that's all anyone can do in these elections is go with what looks safest for themselves, and what they think will help keep things from going to hell quicker.

It amazes me he has any credibility left after morphing himself so heavily.

The Republican party has narrowed their base to this: devout, angry, old white people. That's the vote they want. They better pray moderates don't suddenly turn out to vote like they did the last election.

Yes. This is cool. As a kid, I was asking my parents if that god thing was real or not. They always refused to answer. All they were saying is that I'd have to decide for that by my own, when I'd grow up. It was weird, and a bit frustrating, but very nice in retrospect.