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Dang, I feel like I've done some serious harm to this thread... better do something, quick! Uhm, Anita Sarkeesian is a dumb bitch and the RPS guys have vaginas! Am I right, MEN?

There, that oughta do it. Right back on track.
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F4LL0UT: ...
http://sports.cbsimg.net/images//visual/whatshot/Zimmerman062812.gif
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F4LL0UT: You actually claim that *all* beauty standards are completely social constructs?
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Starmaker: Yes. Even facial symmetry, the last bastion, has been toppled in recent memory (see: emo side fringe).
Does that then mean that gays can indeed be turned straight, with some brainwashing?!? (and vice versa as well, of course)

Wow, the religious nuts were right after all...
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timppu: Does that then mean that gays can indeed be turned straight, with some brainwashing?!? (and vice versa as well, of course)

Wow, the religious nuts were right after all...
This is not a statement that has any basis in anything, but I think homosexual relations were much more common in ancient Greece, so maybe to some degree culture can influence even such things as sexual preferences.

But sexual contacts were much more casual then, so homosexual intercourse might've had nothing to do with actual orientation.

But even if that was true, I don't see any single problem with that.
Post edited November 29, 2013 by keeveek
The main argument in that video seemed to be that women are judged by their appearance (e.g. not getting as good jobs etc. if they are not beautiful), while the same doesn't happen with men.

That argument falls flat on its face considering that e.g. tall men get more salary and better careers than short and feeble men. So yes, men are also judged in the labor market by their appearance. Maybe a bit differently than women, but still. That's why e.g. leg surgeries to get more height are so popular in China, where millions of fresh graduates are seeking job.

Overall, beautiful and more handsome people, both women and men, have more doors open and get more opportunities in life. So what else is new?
Post edited November 29, 2013 by timppu
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timppu: The main argument in that video seemed to be that women are judged by their appearance (e.g. not getting as good jobs etc. if they are not beautiful), while the same doesn't happen with men.
Nope, the argument was that it's not a problem in the same way for men. Men aren't expected to meet beauty ideals based on their sex -- it's not tall men that get more money, it's tall people who get more money.

Also, what about the second argument, that men have more variety to choose from?
Post edited November 29, 2013 by Mrstarker
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Mrstarker: Also, what about the second argument, that men have more variety to choose from?
I'd rather say "people who would like to play as female characters" have less choices.

For me, the distinction "men play want to play as male characters and women want to play as female ones" simply doesn't work.
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keeveek: I'd rather say "people who would like to play as female characters" have less choices.

For me, the distinction "men play want to play as male characters and women want to play as female ones" simply doesn't work.
You are right, of course, but in this instance it was specifically about how the portrayal of men in video games affects men.
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timppu: Does that then mean that gays can indeed be turned straight, with some brainwashing?!? (and vice versa as well, of course)

Wow, the religious nuts were right after all...
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keeveek: This is not a statement that has any basis in anything, but I think homosexual relations were much more common in ancient Greece, so maybe to some degree culture can influence even such things as sexual preferences.

But sexual contacts were much more casual then, so homosexual intercourse might've had nothing to do with actual orientation.

But even if that was true, I don't see any single problem with that.
You're using elements from thousands of years ago which involves so much conjecture they're pointless. Did the Greece have more gay people or was it simply not a taboo? Did more people experiment back then due to a lack of taboo? Or maybe these days we have the same amount, but it's just harder to admit it due to social stigma? I think homosexuality is NOT determined by culture but experimentation is.
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Red_Avatar: You're using elements from thousands of years ago which involves so much conjecture they're pointless. Did the Greece have more gay people or was it simply not a taboo? Did more people experiment back then due to a lack of taboo? Or maybe these days we have the same amount, but it's just harder to admit it due to social stigma? I think homosexuality is NOT determined by culture but experimentation is.
Yes, I think that's true. homosexual intercourse back then was more of a "fun thing to do", so it didn't have much to do with actual sexual orientation, a concept which was rather unkknown back then.

Pedophilia on the other hand, seems to be a purely cultural concept. A concept I wholesomely agree with, but not so long ago banging 14 year olds by 50 year old was acceptable, at least among nobles. Age of consent still is purely arbitrary number based in cultural grounds mostly.
Post edited November 29, 2013 by keeveek
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timppu: The main argument in that video seemed to be that women are judged by their appearance (e.g. not getting as good jobs etc. if they are not beautiful), while the same doesn't happen with men.
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Mrstarker: Nope, the argument was that it's not a problem in the same way for men. Men aren't expected to meet beauty ideals based on their sex -- it's not tall men that get more money, it's tall people who get more money.
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/07/15/size-does-matter-taller-men-earn-more/

"Unfortunately, a recently published study by the international research firm Wiley-Blackwell revealed that taller people, particularly men, earn more money."

Overall, people just prefer to be around people who are beautiful/handsome, young and healthy looking, tall (particularly tall men), slim, intelligent, social, funny etc. They like to be less around people who are ugly, fat, dumb, humorless, asocial etc. I don't see the point of raising only the women beauty as some kind of problem case of these. These appearance bias things affect a lot also men. That's just how the cookie crumbles.

And men do have meet certain ideals in their appearance. Handsome, young and healthy looking men get a different treatment in the society.

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Mrstarker: Also, what about the second argument, that men have more variety to choose from?
What more variety? In games? Publishers will publish any kind of games that sell well. If a game with a sexy hunk protagonists suddenly sold like hotcakes because all hetero females and gay men bought it, they'd make more and more such games.

Frankly, I think most women wouldn't simply care for such games. Overall they seem to like Bejeweled, The Sims and Farmville much more.
Post edited November 29, 2013 by timppu
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scampywiak: I tell ya, when my fellow Goglodytes are questioning shit like evolution and natural selection...
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Vestin: I'll let you in on a little secret: nobody here is ^^. Not now, at least ("questioning things" is not something I'd consider a bad thing). The thing is - "natural selection" and "evolution" are NOT the be-all, end-all answers to all the questions one can ask. "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - you know this one, right? There's even a chance you know what it's a quote from Maslow. There is, however, as very slim chance that you know what book it's from - it's from one called "The Psychology of Science". Ponder that for a moment.
Let me close this with an anecdote. During one of my courses we had a delightful text, where the author pointed out that "gathering" had been a lot more of a food source than "hunting". "Hunting", apparently, was more of a sport, with a high payoff, much fun to be had, yet very slim chances of success. He then went on to prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that women are extremely attracted to athletes. Necessarily, of course, due to how evolution had went. I stopped reading for a moment as I reached that point, finding no evidence of any kind to support his "common-sense observation" that was allegedly more of a showcase of him being right than a thing to prove. Soon enough a suspicion overcame me, and with the most smug contempt I flipped the pages back to the beginning to check the author's name and subsequently establish his nationality. Can you guess where the guy was from and why it was exactly what I had suspected :>?
No. But I still believe in evolution.
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scampywiak: No. But I still believe in evolution.
Well duh. One doesn't really need to "believe" in it, it's a fairly simple and obvious concept. That's like saying that you "believe" in gravity.
I'll tell you the climax of the story either way: the guy was from the Unites States, just as I had suspected. From what I have gathered over the years about this particular country, there seem to exist sport teams of different kinds in most (if not all) schools there. Members of such sport teams are the fabled "jocks" I've been hearing about for years, and as far as I know, they tend to be generally popular with the opposite sex. That's the stereotype anyway. With this in mind, it is fairly trivial for a guy to claim that women (that is: girls) fawn excessively over athletes. A sociologist would've probably conducted a study, a poll or something; an anthropologist would have investigated... Since the author was in the evolutionary psychology camp, he simply wrapped the case by concluding that this is an inevitable consequence of human evolution, something inexorably ingrained in our DNA from the very dawn of mankind.
Keep in mind - this story is not didactic, nor indicative of anything too general, it's merely a personal anecdote of mine. Take it for what it is...
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Nalkoden: Yep. The've gone down hill thanks to that "Social Justice Warrior" crap.

This is not behaviour of a good journalist or how to adress a social problem. Pathetic. Their Deponia review is, at worst, insulting intelligence or, at best, incredibly bad review. I don't like Blizzard very much as a company but when Browden shot them down and ended the interview... *enthusiastic clap clap clap*

Also anyonone got any recommendation of PC gaming websites? I'm currently reading True PC Gaming but dont have any other.
Try Internet Gaming News IGN!
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Starmaker: Yes. Even facial symmetry, the last bastion, has been toppled in recent memory (see: emo side fringe).
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timppu: Does that then mean that gays can indeed be turned straight, with some brainwashing?!? (and vice versa as well, of course)

Wow, the religious nuts were right after all...
Were you huffing paint? What does orientation has to do with anything?

The nutty evopsych screed is that there are persistent standards of beauty for (heterosexual) men and women which were determined by evolution, fitness for childbirth / child rearing / providing for the family and all that shit. Things like hip to waist ratio, preference for clothing cuts and colors, preference for hair length and colors, etc. And this is provably, in some cases obviously, bollocks.

There's a picture of David Hasselhoff that Cracked.com likes to use as a boner killer. On an evolutionary scale, it's an extremely recent picture. It used to be considered sexy when it was taken; now it's the missing ingredient in the religious right's abstinence education.
Other examples include:
"women have a natural preference for pink and pastel colors in general; pastels are unmanly" - wrong! Pastels on men weren't seen in ~250 years but totally did a comeback in the 2000s; pink is an early 1900 reversal;
"long hair is feminine" - hello wigs and hair metal;
"hourglass figure" - those atrocious dresses with the narrowest horizontal immediately below the tits (not to mention large T&A are sporadically considered vulgar);
fat in general - the Russian word for "thin" is literally "bad", "broken", "unfit", "useless" (khudoj);
facial hair - there was a time when it meant you were old, a hobo, binge drinking, or an effeminate villain;
tucking the shirt in - years ago, you were supposed to show your damn waistline;
appearing strong and able to protect your woman - hippies and emo, nuff said (if hippies were supposed to stand up for their convictions, emo can't stand up for shit by definition);
"fluffy skirts on women accentuate their whatnot" - see medieval Japan;
"symmetry is pleasing to the eye because it means you're not a genetic freak" - asymmetry is everywhere, don't even get me started;
"looking healthy" in general - corpselike pallor;
"looking rich" - fucking hipsters.

(Really, the only thing that has stayed constant is the beauty industry's pressure to actually *be* rich, because the whole point of the beauty industry is to sell you shit.)

So while evopsych nuts, like other self-respecting pseudoscientists, can shit out an evopsych explanation for any beauty trend you care to name (beards on men are sexy because it's their sexual characteristic! clean-shaven men are sexy because it means they have time for personal grooming and are thus neat, healthy, successful, and able to provide!), they can't actually account for changes occurring seven orders of magnitude faster than any evolutionary process can be.

edit: missed a word
Post edited November 29, 2013 by Starmaker