Nice straw man there. Because being Jewish is totally the same thing as drinking to the point where you lose control then taking a stroll to an isolated spot with somebody you don't know.



The thing is that DMTrev has been pretty much indoctrinated to the point where he doesn't know what he's talking about.

The point you make here is completely the point. I don't leave loaded weapons just lying around because there is a possibility of it eventually getting into the hands of a child and who knows what happens then.

In cases like that, the person leaving the loaded weapon sitting there is partially responsible. They may not pull the trigger, but they're certainly not completely innocent if they get shot with it. Had they secured the firearm, it wouldn't have happened.

This is very similar in nature. If you're not taking prudent steps to protect yourself, you're partially responsible for what happens. It doesn't make it your fault, but had you taken a greater interest in your safety, it wouldn't have happened.

We're not talking about children here. Children are not in a position to consent which is why statuory rape exists. Those non-consensual sexual acts are wrong because of a lack of ability to understand and consent. Those situations suck, but having advocacy groups making something out of it that might not accurately portray reality, does not help anything at all.

What does this have to do with what I've posted? And you're a damned fool if you think that personal choices don't play a role here.

PS, I never said that they were asking for it. That's in your head, and a course of thorazine might help. For those of us that live in the real world, exercising some degree of caution about whom we spend time with helps a lot.

I can answer my disagreement in a couple of ways. Let me be clear I appreciate your considerate answers Telika. I also agree with a lot you've said so far, and I believe you do not have radical extremist intentions in this particular.

Anyway, at a first level, both sides tend to totalitarianism, as I mentioned. Both are wrong imo.
I mentioned earlier in the thread legal definitions of rape and harrassment as examples of legalized misandry, and the recent posts on penis = rapist harp on that theme. At least in western societies I don't think any "collective" misogynistic behavior reaches this level of wrong. I trust you will agree this is punishment applied unevenly across genders, even if you think it's fair - therefore it is totalitarian.
As a tangent, consider how feminism was born in its modern shape with liberal goals of political emancipation. Then ponder how criminal convictions legitimize removal of political rights. And yet the argument that being accused of a crime is a huge punishment or threat is typically ignored or dismissed entirely.

And at a second level, let's consider the assumptions behind the word punishment, which itself has a subjective element. By the way, I don't consider punishment to be wrong per se.
Going back to the OP's topic, the insistence on obtaining an answer is kind of abusive, at least once it becomes clear the other is not interested in going there with you. Insisting after is punishing, even if you have pure intentions. Again this is totalitarian, in this case in that you objectify the other, even if unwillingly.
To draw a parallel, look at Siannah's reaction to the avatar questions. I had myself thought of asking, but clearly would be a jackass to insist at this point - yet I really am curious, and do not harbor any harmful wish - even if you think I do.

How can you be "partially responsible" without it being "partially your fault"?

Reminds me of a story they told us in anthropology, and I'm paraphrasing here so I could be getting lots of details wrong - "In Saudi Arabia (i think) a man and his buddy were drinking at his house at night, when the man tripped and broke his foot or something. The man's sister heard her brother's scream and came down in her nightgown to see what happened - the "buddy" saw her and raped her. The sister was then stoned for provoking him into adultery."

My question is, how do we know this is the only reason as to why there are so few women in the gaming industry (specifically, programming and designing)? As I previously mentioned, men and women are generally very different when it comes to preferences and a work lifestyle they enjoy. Yes, there is overlap and exceptions, but maybe this type of industry is simply not appealing to women in general? I'm not speaking for everyone, but despite having spent most of my life on computers and playing games, I certainly don't want to sit and work awful hours staring at code all day, and dealing with what sounds to be horrific crunch time practices that are not family friendly. I'd rather be in a job that involves socializing and helping others (social work, medicine, etc) and lets me spend time with my family.

Additionally, there are a good amount of women in the gaming industry, but they work in different areas. One of the articles you linked to mentions women make up 60% of the graphic design industry. There are also quite a few female writers that contribute a great deal to games. Maybe women just don't like programming, and prefer more creative endeavors?

I understand hostile environments are a turn off, but this is not exclusive to the game industry either, and it is something you learn to manage as a woman regardless of where you go to work. These kind of articles never really step back and take the time to view other reasons women may tend to avoid this industry.

I have no facts or scientific data to give on all this, I just feel it is worth discussing if we want to get to the root of the problem. I have yet to see a website or "gaming journalism" site touch on or explore this side of things. It seems easier to just point to sexism and leave it at that.

If you believe that nature exists independetly of humans, and therefore shit happens even though noone is to blame.

Causal responsibility does not imply blame. Just define responsibility to be about power, and blame to be about immorality. Or pick some other words, but keep the distinction.

I never understood it either. Seemed like there were a few pretty notable female games designers like Roberta Williams, back in Sierra's heyday, and I always enjoyed her games.

And that would actually explain why there aren't that many female indie game devs. You can't really use an "women are not allowed into industry" argument, when they are not common in the industry even if they can start a business without any problems.

Of course a woman are responsible all the time and should fear of having to both fit men tastes and risk begin raped if they cross the subjective borderline of acceptable depending on whom is the super rational man looking at them or just cross the path of the wrong guy that is totally unable to control his sexual appetites. We all know rational logic said once that its way more practical for women to wear dresses especially skimpy ones, we all know that's its rational logic that pushes men to feel like they need to molest and rape women because they are weak. Sure Dude, you're such a Bro !

I'm not familiar with that expression but I presume that you accuse me of not having anything to base this statement on. Admittedly I based it on my own experience which is so far heavily limited to smaller and young studios (founded during the last three years), particularly European ones, but there the ratio of women in the art departments is pretty high (well above 50%), particularly among the character artists. Additionally an older well-established German studio that everybody here probably knows outsourced a good chunk of its character design to a person I know, a female freelance 2D artist - and yeah, she did come up with "sexist" designs for female characters. Of course my personal experience doesn't make it a fact (and when I threw it in as a "fun fact "it was really just a random thought, not something I thought anyone would take too seriously or I would have to explain or justify) but frankly, I believe that at least in certain regions it's already true and the tendency is that eventually women will dominate the art departments throughout the whole industry and it will have little impact on the sexualization of female (or male) characters. And no, the sexualization is not caused by my artist friends being homosexuals (although at least two of them actually are lesbians but from what I've seen they aren't more "radical" in their designs than the heterosexual ones).

Happy now?

I feel this is a relevant vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NJQq6WVQCNM

Which isn't true but would probably be the feminist/RPS explanation for that phenomenon, yeah.

Well, the male supervision is probably true but not the weeping into their pillow part since said artist also draw characters of this sort in their free time or in projects where they are more in control (let's not forget that Seduce Me was made by two people, the character artist being a woman - I don't think that she was a victim of her male partner's oppression).

Not really. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

I'm not giving a reason why it is that there aren't many women in gaming, I'm just saying that it's not actually *possible* that most character designs are made by women. The articles I cited demonstrate that with actual data, not "well, from what I saw in the last few years myself."
Ooo! A straw man! How kind of you.

No, that's not my point at all. Some women may not have a problem with overtly sexualized characters. There is a whole broad spectrum of personality types out there. Those women aren't oppressed, they aren't evil, they aren't weeping into their pillows.

One of the interesting things about the human mind is how well it rationalizes. So even if something makes people a someone a little bit uncomfortable to do--even if you hold your nose while you do it--you'll quickly get to the point where it's just part of the job that you don't like. Even if it's not good for other people--whether it's marketing cigarettes or peddling sexism--it's just part of the job.

I can't begrudge someone doing what they have to for their job. But I'd like it if we made it easier for women to not have to participate in sexism to succeed.

No, you don't get it.

I go out to a bar, get sloppy drunk, and black out, you know what my odds of being raped are? Pretty fucking slim. It helps that I'm white, that I'm well off, and that I'm not exactly good looking. I could do this wearing a muscle shirt, or a tuxedo, or a freaking mankini à la Borat and I'd probably be okay. And most people wouldn't say, "Well, he deserved it." if I did get raped.

A woman goes out to bar wearing whatever she wants and gets sloppy drunk and blacks out? I don't like her chances. And if she *did* get raped?

Yeah, People would totally say she deserved it. Police men. Judges. Media. Defense Attorneys. Juries. They'd all say it.

And that's really shitty.

And that's sexism. And that's slut shaming. And that's you blaming the victim because you don't understand. And that's you being too indoctrinated to see the forest for the trees.