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timppu: except when someone claims that you can't be for gender equality unless you are a feminist
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Telika: It is the exact one and same thing. That is all.
No it is not. That is all.
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keeveek: Now women can write books, but somehow they often choose to write male characters as leads also.
Ask yourself why (and why most men write about men aswell).
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Telika: Ask yourself why (and why most men write about men aswell).
Judging by the fact most readers are women, I have no idea. Probably female readers are victims of the patriarchy as well.

I think it's wrong to think you can only identify with a character that is the same sex as the reader. I love Katniss Everdeen and I wouldn't want her to be a man. I can identify with her.

Saying "books with male leads are meant for men" is stupid.

JK Rowling wrote Harry Potter firstly for her daughter. And still decided to make Harry a boy. What a mysoginistic pig she is!

Seriously, "being male is sexist" is the worst argument you can use.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by keeveek
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Kennethor: If you want to talk about it, say something to support your arguments.
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WBGhiro: Becuase pictures with made up facts on them are a proper argument now?

1 in 6 women raped? 97% of all rapists never spent a day in prison? The ominous Patriarchy?

You can tell me i don't know anything all you want, I'd rather not know anything than reading something someone pulle dout of the deep recesses of his anal cavity and thinking i'm educated now.
Made up facts? Do any of these things bother you at all?
I see that you rather stay in your own little world where everybody are equal and there is no racism, it would be nice if I was that dumb to. The reality is something different unfortunetly.
Why do you even talk about things that you say yourself, don't know anything about?
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Telika: It is the exact one and same thing. That is all.
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timppu: No it is not. That is all.
Nope. You just perpetuate a little fantasy that serves to disqualify feminism, by making it some sort of "men annihilation" conspiracy or whatever. It's like when white supremacists publicly denounce antiracist agendas as an invasion attempt by africans. It's both how they perceive it, and how they need it to be perceived. Good for them if people buy it (and if some black panther whackos legitimize it). But it's bullshit.
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keeveek: If I created a fantasy world, there is a chance I would make it mostly white-world. Not because I am a racist, but because my country is pretty much "white only" with barely any immigrants, so this is what I am used to. But I guess my country is racist, because we have pretty much 99% whites here.
I suppose that brings it to the crux of the matter, and I can't fault you on that! Such topics seem irrelevant to you, because they ARE irrelevant to you. But mass media is about the masses, and all races (and all genders of course) make up the consumer base.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by babark
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Kennethor: Look up the definition of the word feminist and what it means to be it.
Which of the many definitions? Here's e.g. what Wikipedia says generally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
There is already a defined term for people who are overall for equality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

That includes also gender equality, and not only looking into it from women's point of view, which is what feminism is doing.

The Swedish feminists are largely affected by misandry.
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keeveek: If I created a fantasy world, there is a chance I would make it mostly white-world. Not because I am a racist, but because my country is pretty much "white only" with barely any immigrants, so this is what I am used to. But I guess my country is racist, because we have pretty much 99% whites here.
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babark: I suppose that brings it to the crux of the matter, and I can't fault you on that! Such topics seem irrelevant to you, because they ARE irrelevant to you. But mass media is about the masses, and other races (and women of course) make up a large part of the consumer base.
Well said, just wanted to say that.
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timppu: No it is not. That is all.
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Telika: Nope. You just perpetuate a little fantasy that serves to disqualify feminism, by making it some sort of "men annihilation" conspiracy or whatever.
Your words, not mine.

I said it is a pro-female movement. They look into things only from female point of view. And nothing wrong with that, I would probably do that too if I was a woman.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by timppu
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Telika: Ask yourself why (and why most men write about men aswell).
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keeveek: Judging by the fact most readers are women, I have no idea. Probably female readers are victims of the patriarchy as well.
Perhaps "male characters" are generally seen as more cool ? Perhaps "interesting stuff happen to male" ? Perhaps it's more "natural" for a hero to be male ? Perhaps it's a bit more of a "male role" to be a hero, or have stuff happen, or be active ?

Perhaps we love in a society that has that as a standard, making "women" exemples a bit exceptional ?

Perhaps it's about these little things that are so deep, so multiplied by echoes, that they make an invisible normality, a "common sense" obviousness, that takes a bit of analysis to actually reveal ?
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Telika: Nope. You just perpetuate a little fantasy that serves to disqualify feminism, by making it some sort of "men annihilation" conspiracy or whatever.
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timppu: Your words, not mine.

I said it is a pro-female movement. They look into things only from female point of view. And nothing wrong with that, I would probably do that too if I was a woman.
We still live in a male-dominated society, when you seek equality it's generally about women empowerment.

You want to play with this honestly ?
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
It's "equal" to men. id you interpret it as "equal amongst women" (in which case they'd all be happy together diwn the ladder) ?
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Telika
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Kennethor: Look up the definition of the word feminist and what it means to be it.
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timppu: Which of the many definitions? Here's e.g. what Wikipedia says generally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
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timppu: There is already a defined term for people who are overall for equality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

That includes also gender equality, and not only looking into it from women's point of view, which is what feminism is doing.

The Swedish feminists are largely affected by misandry.
It is the women who are the lesser in the society, the feminist movement is about evening that out.
Yes, it is from a womens point of view but that is because they are the ones being opressed.
To say anything else is to deny the problem. We are living in a world where the man is the leader and get better salaries, rights and treatment.

You can be a Egalitarian and a feminist. There is nothing wrong with being a feminist, some people say stupid things and call themselves feminists but they are a minority and often not feminists. Some people are offended when someone say that they are a feminist but they don't always understand what it means or have met an idiot who have claimed to be one.

Have you ever met a swedish feminist in real life? I don't think you know anything about our politics, I don't know anything about finnish politics but I don't claim to. I am a feminist and I don't hate men, I am a man if that matters.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Kennethor
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htown1980: ok, now argue that there should not be world peace.
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Rusty_Gunn: You want the entire defense industry out of biz'ness
Lol. That makes way more sense than the stuff keveek has been saying :)
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Kennethor: It is the women who are the lesser in the society, the feminist movement is about evening that out.
Yes, it is from a womens point of view but that is because they are the ones being opressed.
To say anything else is to deny the problem. We are living in a world where the man is the leader and get better salaries, rights and treatment.
You are suggesting that men are never oppressed and women never favored.

Not true at least here in Finland (which actually was recently rated as the second-most equal (between genders) country in the whole wide world, right after Iceland). As a simple example, women here get much more free medical treatment and examinations than men.

Prostatic cancer is one of the most common cancers here (about as high as breast cancer on women), but because it affects only men, there are no free, public screenings for it. At the same time, women get free screenings for breast cancer, carcinoma squamocellulare (cervical cancer), soon there will be free papilloma virus vaccinations for women etc.

At the same time, many older men are denied even treatment for prostatic cancer which is found out too late, because it is reckoned they might die for other reasons, before prostatic cancer kills them. How nice.

Another example: women are clearly favored in courts, especially concerning custodial disputes.

Third example: Feminist keep saying that "men's euro is women't 80 cents" (ie. women in general get only 80% or so salary compared to men), but then they choose to forget that:

- men work much longer hours than women

- the pension system strongly favors women, as men die much younger (for prostatic cancer and working too hard)

While I agree that overall (universally) women are worse off than men, it is "men's issues" like these that these feminists are largely dismissing. Like saying that coming up with them is trying to deny that "women are oppressed".
Post edited November 25, 2013 by timppu
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timppu: Prostatic cancer is one of the most common cancers here (about as high as breast cancer on women), but because it affects only men, there are no free, public screenings for it. At the same time, women get free screenings for breast cancer, carcinoma squamocellulare (cervical cancer), soon there will be free papilloma virus vaccinations for women etc.
That's seriously fucked up. And you'd wonder why men live shorter than women...

Poland is even more fucked, though, because even if you are paying for public health insurance, you still have to pay for examinations. Prostate exam and breast exam are free only after you turn 50yo, which usually means too fucking late.

I guess public health care is always fucked up, but in different ways in different countries.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by keeveek
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WBGhiro: I've got no clue where to go for pc gaming news anymore without being a called an entitled misogynist.

I gave up on RPS after that ridiculous review of deponia 3.
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Crosmando: Sounds like you haven't checked your privilege
In most of the Western World, it's considerably better to be a woman. They whine and whine, but ultimately, they've got basically nothing that doesn't rely upon propaganda to rationalize.