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htown1980: ok, now argue that there should not be world peace.
You didn't understand. That's just a slogan, you can't make a world peace just like you can't make a game that suits everybody.
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keeveek: "Games should be for everybody" is equivalent of "There should be world peace" type of argument.
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htown1980: ok, now argue that there should not be world peace.
You want the entire defense industry out of biz'ness
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keeveek: He can point that out, but what would that make? Can't a fictional world be filled only with white males? Or black women? Or colourful people?

It would be silly to call my world racist when there are no different races in it at all ;P
How many fictional worlds can you think of with only black people? How many fictional worlds can you think of with only white people, or maybe 1 black character along with dozens of white characters?

Would your world with "no races" have them all be caucasian looking?

The only major examples of "all female" worlds usually end up having "butch" "super-lesbian" "feminazi" amazonian-style women stories about how they hunt down males or imprison males for breeding, where the moral of the story ends up being "Yeah, sometimes males are okay too". Nothing wrong with that specific kind of story sometimes, but EVERY such story being like that?
Post edited November 25, 2013 by babark
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Kennethor: And don't you think that if someone makes a piece of sexist trash, journalists should'nt talk about it?
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keeveek: They can. At the same time, some other people should be able to say "this opinion is garbage" without being automatically labelled as mysoginist pig.

Many reviewers can't grasp the difference between fiction and reality also. For example, when in Game of Thrones Joffrey killed a prostitute, there were feminists bashing about how GoT is sexist and promotes abuse against women.

I mean, what the actual fuck. The only thing that happened there was to show JOFFREY, FICTIONAL CHARACTER to be a mysoginist and female abuser.

The same thing is for this MOBA interview. The "journalist" bashes some character concept regardless of the fact the entire game world is made to be over the top and stereotypical entertainment. There are not only oversexualized women there but also over-muscled(?) men, so it fits together perfectly.

Nitpicking things like that is not "analyzing", but simply bashing for attention.
I agree with most of what you say, but of course the one who say that "this opinion is garbage" can be labelled a mysoginist pig. Thats the whole point of free speech etc.
I agree completely with the GoT thing, that's just ridicoulos.
Over-sexualized women are more serious than a muscled man because women in the real world are abused and objectified, men are'nt nearly as much.
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babark: How many fictional worlds can you think of with only black people? How many fictional worlds can you think of with only white people, or maybe 1 black character along with dozens of white characters?
So it's all an issue of "how many" ? Last time I checked African-American people were not banned from writing their own fiction, so they may switch the roles as much as they want. I wouldn't be offended.

Would your world with "no races" have them all be caucasian looking?
So if it was all whites it would be racist, but if it would be all blacks, it woudln't?

Holy shit, seriously. I hear that kind of argumentation all the time from feminists. I even read an article that Harry Potter is sexist because the head of Hogwarts is male. Just simply being a male is sexism, simply being white is racism. And if the genders / races were switched - tadam, no racism.

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this.
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keeveek: Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this.
Do, by not treating these as isolated cases, but as a systematic. Check the disproportions.
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Kennethor: Over-sexualized women are more serious than a muscled man because women in the real world are abused and objectified, men are'nt nearly as much.
That's true. At the same time, some women like to play as sexy characters, they also have their power fantasies. When I was a teenager, pretty much every girl in my class wanted to be like Lara Croft.

You can't say "most men like to play as big chested men and like to look at sexy female characters and at the same time women don't like to be sexy".

Also, some of you say "women can't play this game, because female characters are oversexualized" -> again, like the only characters a women can play has to be a female character?
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Kennethor: Games should be for everybody, not just for boys who don't care.
If you can't understand the problem, do some research.

http://trettiotreanledningar.com/33-reasons-to-be-a-feminist/
You don't have to be a feminist to agree with (m)any of those points.

Pretty hard for men to be a feminist anyway, e.g. because:

- Many (female) feminists say outright that a man can't be a feminist, because in order to be one, you first have to have the experience of being a woman ("naiseuden kokemus" in Finnish). Which obviously a man lacks, unless he's gone through a sex-change surgery and was a woman before.

http://www.tulva.fi/index.php?k=115790

- At least here in Finland, the leading feminist organization (Naisunioni = Female Union) does not accept men as its members. There are discussions ongoing inside the organization whether this should change.

http://www.tulva.fi/blogi2.php?aid=116088

Either way, I regard feminism as a pro-female movement. And nothing wrong with that, except when someone claims that you can't be for gender equality unless you are a feminist. I am not a feminist, I am an egalitarian.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by timppu
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25078544
Maybe Anita Sarkeesian should have a word with these three women. They have clearly been sexist by saying women can't do what the men can do ...
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babark: How many fictional worlds can you think of with only black people? How many fictional worlds can you think of with only white people, or maybe 1 black character along with dozens of white characters?
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keeveek: So it's all an issue of "how many" ? Last time I checked African-American people were not banned from writing their own fiction, so they may switch the roles as much as they want. I wouldn't be offended.

Would your world with "no races" have them all be caucasian looking?
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keeveek: So if it was all whites it would be racist, but if it would be all blacks, it woudln't?

Holy shit, seriously. I hear that kind of argumentation all the time from feminists. I even read an article that Harry Potter is sexist because the head of Hogwarts is male. Just simply being a male is sexism, simply being white is racism. And if the genders / races were switched - tadam, no racism.

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this.
If you don't understand, the problem is that a lot of other people are wrong or stupid? Oookey.
Of course a game with only black men would be questionable, where are the women for example?
Being a feminist is not about women only, you don't seem to get that.
90% of all media is white powerful men, how many different kinds of people are there in the world?
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Kennethor
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keeveek: So it's all an issue of "how many" ? Last time I checked African-American people were not banned from writing their own fiction, so they may switch the roles as much as they want. I wouldn't be offended.
So every race should make media of their own people only? Only women should write about women, and only men should write about men?

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keeveek: So if it was all whites it would be racist, but if it would be all blacks, it woudln't?
It is definitely about number. How many worlds of all black can you think of? There are literally none. How many worlds of all-white (or all-white with 1 or 2 black characters) can you think of? There are literally hundreds. The entirety of the english/european languages follows that tradition.
We live in an international world now. What is wrong with questioning these conventions?

Literally the ONLY example in mainstream media I can think of that had a majority (or at least equal number) of black people along with white people is Zion from the Matrix series. And that had Keanu Reeves playing the Messiah :D.

PS: I don't remember making any argument about Harry Potter's leadership at all...best to take that up with whoever mentioned it.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by babark
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Telika: Do, by not treating these as isolated cases, but as a systematic. Check the disproportions.
But there is a freedom of creation, isn't there? Everyone can write a book, for example, so they may create the worlds just as much as they want.

Underrepresentation argument was good when women were not allowed to get equal education or entry. Now women can write books, but somehow they often choose to write male characters as leads also. But that's probably also patriarchy's fault, right? J.K. Rowling felt a victim of patriarchy and made Dumbledore a man.

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babark: So every race should make media of their own people only?
You're not gonna achieve anything by twisting my sentences into ones that you would want.

I meant everyone can create the world as much as he wants, and fill it with characters with just traits he likes the most. Diversity is good. I wouldn't try to bash any author for creating a world like he imagined.

If I created a fantasy world, there is a chance I would make it mostly white-world. Not because I am a racist, but because my country is pretty much "white only" with barely any immigrants, so this is what I am used to. But I guess my country is racist, because we have pretty much 99% whites here.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by keeveek
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Kennethor: If you want to talk about it, say something to support your arguments.
Becuase pictures with made up facts on them are a proper argument now?

1 in 6 women raped? 97% of all rapists never spent a day in prison? The ominous Patriarchy?

You can tell me i don't know anything all you want, I'd rather not know anything than reading something someone pulle dout of the deep recesses of his anal cavity and thinking i'm educated now.
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timppu: except when someone claims that you can't be for gender equality unless you are a feminist
It is the exact one and same thing. That is all.

People who say that men can't be feminists are simply idiots. One can be simultaneously an idiot and a woman, or an idiot and a feminist, that's not entirely incompatible - idiot isn't incompatible with many things (if anything). This doesn't change what feminism is.
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Kennethor: Games should be for everybody, not just for boys who don't care.
If you can't understand the problem, do some research.

http://trettiotreanledningar.com/33-reasons-to-be-a-feminist/
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timppu: You don't have to be a feminist to agree with (m)any of those points.

Pretty hard for men to be a feminist anyway, e.g. because:

- Many (female) feminists say outright that a man can't be a feminist, because to be one, you first have to have the experience of being a woman ("naiseuden kokemus" in Finnish). Which obviously a man lacks, unless he's gone through a sex-change surgery and was a woman before.

- At least here in Finland, the leading feminist organization (Naisunioni = Female Union) does not accept men as its members. There are discussions ongoing inside the organization whether this should change.

Either way, I regard feminism as a pro-female movement. And nothing wrong with that, except when someone claims that you can't be for gender equality unless you are a feminist. I am not a feminist, I am an egalitarian.
If they do not accept men, I don't think they are feminists. Here in Sweden we also have a feminist party and everybody are welcome.
Many people are afraid to be labelled feminists without even knowing what a feminist is. Many people call themselves feminists because they hate men and want the women to rule. They are not feminists.
Look up the definition of the word feminist and what it means to be it.