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cioran: Painkiller has no discernible storyline to make the lead emo.
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Mentalepsy: I meant the game, not the lead :) Despite the gameplay being nothing more advanced than an unapologetic arena shooter, it still wants to be an edgy unapologetic arena shooter. The handful of cutscenes aren't much, but they're enough to settle the game into a zone of generic pathos.
Can't comment on Scarface or Timesplitters, but outside of those I only partially agree with your analyses. That's okay though, we both played the games and have our opinions.
Anyway, I didn't say it doesn't happen - I did use the word 'typically.' I just rarely if ever see it, and while I've played lots of games that reminded me of Doom, I've never played a game that at all reminded me of Rise of the Triad. Thus, it's hard for me to imagine what a modern version of it would look like.

I still disagree, mainly because these same things would put Doom 2 in emo territory. Remember the cutscenes at the end with the deer, etc? FPS games like that aren't about story, they're about gameplay.
Play Timesplitters 2. Really, if you like RotT, you'll cream yourself over that one. I really love the multiplayer, but I know plenty of people who think it's the best console FPS of all time. Pretty good single player campaign (and it has levels that are actually parodies of other games like 007 at points, kind of like RotT and its unabashed love of wolf3d), but quite hard. The third one has a great campaign, but a weaker multiplayer. It's also less darkly humorous. Also worth a play.
Incidentally, yeah, Scarface is definitely in the ballpark. "Balls" meter. Really. I'm not making this up. Play the demo or something, you'll laugh yourself silly.
Post edited August 24, 2009 by cioran
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cioran: Play Timesplitters 2. Really, if you like RotT, you'll cream yourself over that one. I really love the multiplayer, but I know plenty of people who think it's the best console FPS of all time. Pretty good single player campaign (and it has levels that are actually parodies of other games like 007 at points, kind of like RotT and its unabashed love of wolf3d), but quite hard. The third one has a great campaign, but a weaker multiplayer. It's also less darkly humorous. Also worth a play.

I'm one of those people that thinks TS2 is the best console FPS. Timesplitters: Future Perfect is a close second. If they had well done PC ports I would die of happiness.
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cioran: Play Timesplitters 2. Really, if you like RotT, you'll cream yourself over that one. I really love the multiplayer, but I know plenty of people who think it's the best console FPS of all time. Pretty good single player campaign (and it has levels that are actually parodies of other games like 007 at points, kind of like RotT and its unabashed love of wolf3d), but quite hard. The third one has a great campaign, but a weaker multiplayer. It's also less darkly humorous. Also worth a play.
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PoSSeSSeDCoW: I'm one of those people that thinks TS2 is the best console FPS. Timesplitters: Future Perfect is a close second. If they had well done PC ports I would die of happiness.

It really was a great game, probably one of the best multiplayer shooters of all time. For me, Perfect Dark (N64) edged it out because of a more enjoyable single-player campaign in addition to its multi-player. Still, a minor quibble. UT and its various updates is the only other thing I played multiplayer as much.
I'm always shocked by the fact that those TS games didn't sell a bajillion copies, especially that 3rd game. All my friends even went out and bought consoles and that game after playing that at my house. Second coming of Goldeneye was what one of them called it.
Post edited August 24, 2009 by cioran
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cioran: I'm always shocked by the fact that those TS games didn't sell a bajillion copies, especially that 3rd game. All my friends even went out and bought consoles and that game after playing that at my house. Second coming of Goldeneye was what one of them called it.

It was a shame that Free Radical died after Haze. I hope that Crytek will let them continue working on TS4 (and have it come out for PC).
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cioran: I still disagree, mainly because these same things would put Doom 2 in emo territory. Remember the cutscenes at the end with the deer, etc? FPS games like that aren't about story, they're about gameplay.

I can't remember if I ever finished Doom 2, but I wouldn't object if you put the Doom games in the same "this game is totally absurd, we should probably relax a little more" category.
It's all about personal perception. Some people dislike the overwritten dialogue in Max Payne, or dismiss Battletoads as a TMNT ripoff (if you ask me, its true identity was really inspired more by stranger sources). I think Braid is pretentious to an intolerable degree.
Personally, I wouldn't really say that Rott counts as satirical or tongue-in-cheek, not exactly. Self-aware, yes, but only in the sense that it knows how silly it looks. In Blake Stone, your pistol blasted eight-inch holes in guards because Apogee thought that was awesome; in Rott, they ramped up the violence not to poke fun at anyone, but because they still thought it was awesome. It's just that this time, they were also saying "Yes, we know this is stupid, but do you really care?"
Again, that's just my personal impression.
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cioran: Play Timesplitters 2. Really, if you like RotT, you'll cream yourself over that one. I really love the multiplayer, but I know plenty of people who think it's the best console FPS of all time. Pretty good single player campaign (and it has levels that are actually parodies of other games like 007 at points, kind of like RotT and its unabashed love of wolf3d), but quite hard. The third one has a great campaign, but a weaker multiplayer. It's also less darkly humorous. Also worth a play.

I don't own a console nowadays, so I doubt I'll get the chance. I did play a few levels of it some years back at a friend's house and it seemed fun, but I never went for it myself because I usually struggle with console FPS controls too much to really enjoy the games (the exception is Goldeneye, which for some reason I could always control very well).
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cioran: Incidentally, yeah, Scarface is definitely in the ballpark. "Balls" meter. Really. I'm not making this up. Play the demo or something, you'll laugh yourself silly.

I've never seen the movie and am not really motivated to do so. That being the case, is it still worth playing?
Post edited August 24, 2009 by Mentalepsy
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Mentalepsy: I've never seen the movie and am not really motivated to do so. That being the case, is it still worth playing?

I wouldn't buy it, it's not that good, but it proves my point. Like I said, play the demo. It's more over-the-top than Bloodrayne in an entirely ridiculous way a la the apogee games. Point being that devs are making these games (and they don't all have gritty storylines), you're probably just not playing them.
If you like sandbox games, you might like it, but it's relatively mediocre for the genre (it's for whatever reason a strong genre in the last 5 years or so - with AAA titles like GTA series, Bully, Hulk, Ultimate Destruction, Mafia series, etc so those should all be played first) and the game itself is moderately hard (about the same as the GTA games) so if you're new to the genre you'll die a lot. I wouldn't recommend purchasing unless you love sandbox games and have played everything else.
Also, you haven't seen Scarface? How is that possible?
Post edited August 24, 2009 by cioran
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cioran: If you like sandbox games, you might like it, but it's relatively mediocre for the genre (it's for whatever reason a strong genre in the last 5 years or so - with AAA titles like GTA series, Bully, Hulk, Ultimate Destruction, Mafia series, etc so those should all be played first) and the game itself is moderately hard (about the same as the GTA games) so if you're new to the genre you'll die a lot. I wouldn't recommend purchasing unless you love sandbox games and have played everything else.

Depending on your definition of sandbox games, I either love them, hate them, or haven't played any :p
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cioran: Also, you haven't seen Scarface? How is that possible?

I'm not a big movie buff, and according to Wikipedia, I was nine months old when it came out.
I rarely watch television, see probably one or two movies a year in the theatre, and rent maybe 5-10, so there are hundreds of high-profile movies I've never seen.
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cioran: The game is a doom 2 clone. It absolutely knows it's a Doom 2 clone.

I wouldn't really call Painkiller much of a Doom 2 clone. I find the gameplay to be even more primitive than it - at least in Doom 2 you had the exploration part, where you had to find keys and open doors, and such. Pretty much the only thing you had to do in Painkiller was kill all the monsters in one area, before going to another. Not big of a difference perhaps, but I find the pacing to be somewhat different.
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cioran: The game is a doom 2 clone. It absolutely knows it's a Doom 2 clone.
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sheepdragon: I wouldn't really call Painkiller much of a Doom 2 clone. I find the gameplay to be even more primitive than it - at least in Doom 2 you had the exploration part, where you had to find keys and open doors, and such. Pretty much the only thing you had to do in Painkiller was kill all the monsters in one area, before going to another. Not big of a difference perhaps, but I find the pacing to be somewhat different.

Fair point.
As someone else mentioned (Mentalepsy, I think?), arena shooter is probably a better name for it than Doom 2 clone. I haven't played Doom 2 lately but it was less of a corridor shooter than Doom, but you're right, not nearly as open as Painkiller and D2 did have those elevators, keys, and other remnants of corridor shooters.
Mentalepsy, if you're over 17, rent Scarface. Great, great movie.
Post edited August 25, 2009 by cioran