It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
If I had to compare DRM to my life I'd say I'm ok with using a key to enter my flat, but I absolutely refuse to have my landlord standing behind me all the time I'm at home and if the landlord should be absent for whatever reason I couldn't use the flat I pay rent for. So in my oppinion there are certain DRM methods that are fair and not to much hassle and I don't mind if someone wants to protect his work. If I'm treated like a potential pirate and not beeing trusted the least bit, I stay away from the product. I don't buy it and I don't pirate it, simple as that.
The irony is, that every DRM system always affects paying customers, while the pirated versions are stript of it.
avatar
rojimboo: According to Jain(2008), “Many industry analysts see copying as one of the key threats to profitability and innovation. They claim that copying leads to higher prices for legitimate users, lower profits for the firms, reduced new product innovation and is generally harmful to society .” The paper continues to examine the impact of illegal copying of software and other similar intellectual properties on firms’ prices, profits, and quality choices, even when there are no network effects and the market is saturated.
I think the main threat to innovation is the lack of courage to try something new and - maybe - lose customers. It's all about the profit. Stick with known genre, adjust the graphics change the number behind the title, rinse and repeat. The good/new ideas or concepts I saw in the last ten years are almost exclusively brought up by small relatively unknows teams.

Edit: A little excursion: You're stealing it wrong 30 years of inter pirate battles. Talk by Jason Scott at Defcon 18 http://youtu.be/a5AceLYWE1Q
Post edited January 04, 2014 by golea
avatar
golea: I think the main threat to innovation is the lack of courage to try something new and - maybe - lose customers. It's all about the profit. Stick with known genre, adjust the graphics change the number behind the title, rinse and repeat. The good/new ideas or concepts I saw in the last ten years are almost exclusively brought up by small relatively unknows teams.
'New things' don't necessarily translate to 'Innovation' - polish, UI customisations, different ways of implementing the known concepts / combining them in new ways are (should be at any rate) considered innovative as well.

Problem is that most major concepts have already been explored in gaming already, and completely new conecpts tend to be too gimmicky or abstract to be used in mainstream media. With this in mind, mainstream media actually still innovates, there are loads of games which do something that has not been done (or not nearly as well) before. I believe that's the innovation OP had in mind, not coming up with extremely risky concepts.
avatar
rojimboo: ...as most people will still steal the game.
I don't agree with that assumption at all. Most people who can comfortably afford your game will buy it (as opposed to using other means like torrent sites); not only does it make them feel better about it, but it's usually easier and safer for their computer. Mostly it's people who are not financially well off who will not buy your game anyway (not a lost sale), including students (i.e. they're not "evil" people). Don't worry about them being able to play your game (if it's not a lost sale then why do you care? oh no, he/she doesn't "deserve it" because he/she is poor at the moment!). Make some fans even, be nice to them, and maybe in the future they'll give you money when they're better able to.

I also disagree with the term "steal the game"... piracy is COPYright infringement, not theft/stealing. You're making a copy of something and leaving the original in place. Going into an electronics shop and walking out with a TV without paying is stealing. Piracy is more like using a futuristic tricorder to scan the TV, then going home and replicating the TV with your home replicator. The morality of the second thing is much more vague than the first thing.
Post edited January 04, 2014 by TDP
avatar
rojimboo: ...as most people will still steal the game.
avatar
TDP: I don't agree with that assumption at all. Most people who can comfortably afford your game will buy it (as opposed to using other means like torrent sites); not only does it make them feel better about it, but it's usually easier and safer for their computer. Mostly it's people who are not financially well off who will not buy your game anyway (not a lost sale), including students (i.e. they're not "evil" people). Don't worry about them being able to play your game (if it's not a lost sale then why do you care? oh no, he/she doesn't "deserve it" because he/she is poor at the moment!). Make some fans even, be nice to them, and maybe in the future they'll give you money when they're better able to.

I also disagree with the term "steal the game"... piracy is COPYright infringement, not theft/stealing. You're making a copy of something and leaving the original in place. Going into an electronics shop and walking out with a TV without paying is stealing. Piracy is more like using a futuristic tricorder to scan the TV, then going home and replicating the TV with your home replicator. The morality of the second thing is much more vague than the first thing.
Poor choice of words (pirates make me angry yarrr, I suffer them), I also agree piracy is copyright infringement and not theft.

Not sure if you managed to check out Ghazi article but it has a few anectodal examples that seem to counter claims that as long as developers make cheap, excellent, indie, readily available games that people would pirate them less (links and sources in previously linked article page):
've saved an excellent example for last. As an indication that not only is the scale of piracy generally high across all types of games, but more importantly, that it seems to have little to do with DRM, big greedy game companies, or the high price of games, let's take a look at a game called World of Goo, recently released by a small independent developer called 2D Boy consisting of a team of 3 people. It's available as a digital download, selling for less than $20 on Steam, it has no intrusive DRM, and it's received nothing but praise, reflected in a Metacritic Score of 90%/95%. This should be precisely the recipe for preventing piracy according to some, but unfortunately the truth is less convenient: the developer of the game has stated that World of Goo has an approximate piracy rate of 90%. Regardless of the precise level of piracy, the key point to consider is that World of Goo addresses every single item on the checklist of excuses which people usually present for pirating games - yet it is still being pirated quite heavily.

Update: Just to show that World of Goo wasn't an isolated case, there is yet another example of the irrelevance of DRM, big greedy companies and high prices to piracy. The independent game Machinarium, released by a small Czech developer and priced at $20 with no DRM also has the dubious honor of a 90% piracy rate.
Of course this is not mentioning at all the actual number of lost sales, i.e. how many of them would have bought the game if the inequity between the pirated good vs the legit good was lowered somehow, that is, if the legit game managed to be higher in value than currently, but it does show the large scale of piracy in games that really shouldn't be pirated so much.
No, DRM IS NOT a "quite a complicated and divisive issue". DRM is shit, always, and whoever says something different can be classified either as an asshole (who is maybe trying to sell you some digital, server-authenticated crap) or as someone that doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/faq
Post edited January 04, 2014 by KingofGnG
i dont know. it seems to me like piracy is "losing". Those who pirate commercially constantly expose their computers to malware. Most drm does not harm performance. But the best part is, gog has proven people would still rather not pirate even if theres no drm at all.
The best way to beat piracy is to meet the consumer halfway, and its taken a long time but i think the industry has slowly accepted this.
Post edited January 04, 2014 by zavlin
avatar
rojimboo: ...counter claims that as long as developers make cheap, excellent, indie, readily available games that people would pirate them less
That's clearly a strawman argument, considering hardly anyone makes that claim. The claim people ARE making is that making "cheap, excellent, indie, readily available games" improves SALES. You (and that quote) seem to still be focused on this silly obsession with reducing piracy, as if that somehow helps companies financially. There's no evidence whatsoever that reducing piracy rates improves sales.
avatar
rojimboo: There is however some empirical evidence of similar measures as DRM, that affect the demand for piracy and lower the inequity between the pirated good and the legit good, that being legislative measures in France to reduce torrenting, that piracy does indeed result in lost sales in the music industry, as explained in the OP.
avatar
Darvin: I was surprised when I read 20-25%, though at the time of my response I elected not to address those numbers directly. That said, I did want to check them out. There are two things that catch my attention.

The shape of the graph immediately caught my attention. The divergence between the treatment and control groups began before the passage of the bill, widened substantially after the bill passed, but then narrowed over time to return to values similar to those prior to the bill's passage. I'd be interested in seeing later data points to see whether the values stabilized, continued to converge, or began to diverge again. It's like a story got cut off right before the climax and you don't know how it's going to end.
I...don't really observe what you seem to observe :) . Looking at the Google Trends Index, the divergence began once the bill was presented to the National Assembly. Before that they were France and the control group were said to be statistically indistinguishable. The divergence grows, stabilises and remains at a certain level.


avatar
Darvin: Secondly, the data set is restricted to digital distribution on a specific platform (iTunes). The authors remark that overall music sales in France were in decline at the time, and the the increase in iTunes sales did not reverse this trend. The authors conclude that although overall sales did decrease, they would have decreased more had Hadopi not been enacted. However, this presumes that a relative increase in sales in one class (digital, in this case) is indicative of a relative increase in sales in all classes. I do not believe this is a valid presumption; it may be the case, but it's just as possible that the additional digital sales displaced physical product sales (ie, my "zero sum" hypothesis). Without looking at numbers for the entire music industry, you just can't say.
They acknowledge this limitation themselves, but there is some literature to back them up, that mentions former pirates likelier to purchase from digital retailers rather that physical ones (quoted for everyone):
With respect to the second question (will HADOPI cause increased consumption of legal music and will this consumption occur in digital or physical channels), as noted above, the literature seems to suggest that consumers are strongly tied to either the digital or physical channel such that if a consumer is forced to stop consuming digital piracy, the literature suggests that they are more likely to switch to other digital channels than they are to return to CD purchases (see, for example, Danaher et al. 2010, Hu and Smith 2011). Because of this, we focus on the impact of HADOPI on digital music sales, reflecting our belief that if HADOPI impacts individuals‘ ability to pirate online, they are more likely to turn to digital music channels than they are to go back to physical purchases of CDs

However, since nearly all prior literature indicates that filesharing does indeed displace sales of physical music, it is a limitation of this paper that we are only able to examine iTunes sales data as it is very possible that HADOPI could affect physical sales as well. Unfortunately, physical retail sales data were not available to us at the time of this study and we suggest that our methodology could be applied to these data as well. Data from the Syndicat National de L‘edition Phonographique (SNEP) indicate that 25% of French music sales in the first 3 quarters of 2011 were digital10, with physical making up the remainder. Thus, our study asks the question of whether a law like HADOPI can stimulate sales of one form of media (music) in one channel (iTunes), and as such likely will not capture the total impact of the law.
.
The genre analysis adds credibility to their conclusions.
We also note that the effect of HADOPI was larger for more heavily pirated genres like Rap and smaller for less pirated genres like Christian music or Jazz, suggesting that the increase in sales is likely caused by a reduction in piracy. It is worth noting we observed this sales pattern for each of the four majors when analyzed separately, providing some support our assumption that HADOPI may have had the same effect on the independent labels
If only they would have looked at the PC software industry too, and actually got data from digital distributors and physical retailers - that would have been such an interesting and relevant paper for us. If only the world was ideal, sigh.
avatar
KingofGnG: DRM is shit, always, and whoever says something different can be classified either as an asshole (who is maybe trying to sell you some digital, server-authenticated crap) or as someone that doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/faq
Agree completely with this.

I also think one reason that some companies are pro-DRM is their dirty desire to control and monitor (i.e. spy on) their customers. They promote control freaks to the top positions of these publishing companies, and these control freaks exhibit the same tendencies toward company policies and customers as they do toward their personal lives; hence the removal of user-controlled servers (replacing them with company-run servers), the desire to track the activities of end-users (track when they play, which games they play, how often they play, heck I'm sure they would track your web browsing activity if they were able to), the locking down of a game from modification unless officially endorsed & promoted by the company ("we the corporation are okay with this user-created mod since we officially endorsed this mod, hence we the corporation are still somehow in control), and of course we the corporation "authorize" you the end-user to play the game, but you must ask permission every time, etc. etc. Those are some of the real reasons behind DRM, and it makes me sick.
avatar
rojimboo: ...counter claims that as long as developers make cheap, excellent, indie, readily available games that people would pirate them less
avatar
TDP: That's clearly a strawman argument, considering hardly anyone makes that claim. The claim people ARE making is that making "cheap, excellent, indie, readily available games" improves SALES. You (and that quote) seem to still be focused on this silly obsession with reducing piracy, as if that somehow helps companies financially. There's no evidence whatsoever that reducing piracy rates improves sales.
You should read the HADOPI and MegaUpload papers if you haven't already, mentioned in OP in specifically in this regard. It shows there is a massive market of casual pirates ready to purchase legit goods if the inequity between the pirated and legit is lowered (i.e. lower the demand for piracy, or reduce the supply of piracy).

Also, it is in the definition of piracy rate. Illegal copies/ (Illegal copies+Legal Copies= Total Copies) = Piracy rate, i.e. if piracy rate is lowered, all other things equal, illegal copies became legal copies, hence improving sales.
You know if 2D Boy and the company behind Machinarium can both get real time logs of how many games they have sold against the number of games attempting to reach their servers then the larger companies must be able to see this kind of thing too.
Heck, the guys who made Game Dev released a special version out over the torrent sites with a preset problem so that although players could play the game, they would never be able to finish it without getting a retail version.

The really odd thing is the fact that there are small companies thinking up these non intrusive methods to keep tallies and protect their games, whilst the larger companies keep going for the "in your face" approach to copy protection.

Update: Just to show that World of Goo wasn't an isolated case, there is yet another example of the irrelevance of DRM, big greedy companies and high prices to piracy. The independent game Machinarium, released by a small Czech developer and priced at $20 with no DRM also has the dubious honor of a 90% piracy rate.
avatar
rojimboo:
The only thing that figure shows is that $20 is still way above the threshold price point of the majority of people interested in the game.

My theory is that in a couple of years, cloud gaming becoming the norm is going to make the whole issue irrelevant. Physical media and persistent local copies of games will turn into a curiosity, mostly confined to the DIY/hobbyist sector.
Post edited January 04, 2014 by drennan
avatar
rojimboo: it is in the definition of piracy rate. Illegal copies/ (Illegal copies+Legal Copies= Total Copies) = Piracy rate, i.e. if piracy rate is lowered, all other things equal, illegal copies became legal copies, hence improving sales.
Wow! Illegal copies magically become legal copies, hence improving sales? Where do you get this stuff from, the RIAA & MPAA literature?

Your grasp of basic math is bad, and here's why:
In your ratio above, "a / (a+b) = c", if c is reduced by 10%, potentially BOTH a and b could decrease simultaneously (by differing amounts), or potentially both a and b could increase simultaneously (by differing amounts); both scenarios could result in a reduction of c. Yet you claim that if c is reduced by 10%, not only does a decrease and b increase, but that they increase and decrease by the same amount. It's quite a stretch of fantasy to make this claim.

You have no evidence whatsoever that reducing piracy rates improves sales. It's clearly not true "by definition".
Post edited January 04, 2014 by TDP
avatar
rojimboo: OP continued
Most games DRM is fairly non-intrusive (having internet, running out activations in an unlikely event), and ends up being a win-win situation for all on the whole
I'm starting to think this thread was started by an industry copyright shill. Posts some pro-DRM articles written by obvious industry stooges that are completely full of logical fallacies, and presents it as being a nice discussion on DRM, really it's too much.
avatar
rojimboo: it is in the definition of piracy rate. Illegal copies/ (Illegal copies+Legal Copies= Total Copies) = Piracy rate, i.e. if piracy rate is lowered, all other things equal, illegal copies became legal copies, hence improving sales.
avatar
TDP: Wow! Illegal copies magically become legal copies, hence improving sales? Where do you get this stuff from, the RIAA & MPAA literature?

Your grasp of basic math is bad, and here's why:
In your ratio above, "a / (a+b) = c", if c is reduced by 10%, potentially BOTH a and b could decrease simultaneously (by differing amounts), or potentially both a and b could increase simultaneously (by differing amounts); both scenarios could result in a reduction of c. Yet you claim that if c is reduced by 10%, not only does a decrease and b increase, but that they increase and decrease by the same amount. It's quite a stretch of fantasy to make this claim.

You have no evidence whatsoever that reducing piracy rates improves sales. It's clearly not true "by definition".
I did state all other things being equal, and there existing the HADOPI and Megaupload for you to see.

I see that something has made you very defensive and hostile.

So I am just going to back off slowly away from you whilst avoiding eye contact, xd.