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Thegreatbobo: As far as best RPGs evar, let's just concede Baldur's Gate and Planescape rule then call it a day.

Try Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape: Torment. Baldur's Gate is too lightweight to even enter the competition.
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Thegreatbobo: It really wasn't. I enjoyed it. And this is coming from a Hardcore Fallout 1 and 2 fan (I guess it doesn't matter I keep saying this.)

Because you enjoyed it doesn't mean it's good. And the fact that you are a fan of the first two games doesn't give any weight to your argument.
Post edited August 31, 2009 by Gragt
it seems a lot of people haven't read that this list is for best PC rpgs in the last 5 years, not of all time.
I'm wondering what all these supposedly better RPGs made in the last 5 years are. So far I have seen The Witcher and Neverwinter Nights listed, but that's only 2 games.
so what are the other 3?
I'm not saying I agree with the list, I actually don't have a powerful enough PC to play anything made in the last 5 years(I have a 360 and I have played Mass Effect and Fallout 3). I'm just wondering what the other games are so I can consider them
I'm amazed Jade Empire hasn't been mentioned, I really enjoyed that.
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Gragt: Because you enjoyed it doesn't mean it's good.

Actually, it does. That's really the only criterion that matters when someone is saying whether or not a game is good (a subjective opinion from the outset). If I like a game, it's good (to me). If you don't like a game, it's not (to you). Simple as that. There's no way you can point to a game and say 'I don't like it, so it's not good for anyone else'.
Meh, stop your bitching and move on.
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JudasIscariot: Sorry, but Bethesda making it into an FPS with RPG elements just doesn't cut it. The stats in the game appear to be nothing more than decoration.
[....]
They also used Oblivion's engine along with the Radiant AI. Let me tell you something about Radiant AI. This is the same AI that had characters raking their carpets in Oblivion...

Sorry, but an FPS hits where you aim; Fallout 3 does not. With a poor skill (that is, stats), your bullets fly all around the targeting reticule.
Also, I've never seen anyone rake the carpet in Oblivion, and I'm closing in on 200 hours.
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Coelocanth: There's no way you can point to a game and say 'I don't like it, so it's not good for anyone else'.

Indeed, that's something no one should do because preference lies on the emotional level, which varies from people to people, and also for one given person. That's why it's also pointless to debate of preference because everyone is free to like or dislike what they want, without the need to explain it. Quality on the other hand is intrinsinc to the work, can be quantified, and doesn't vary depending to people.
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Mentalepsy: I felt that there wasn't much to it. For me, the game pretty much stopped at level 4 or 5. Over the next thirteen or so levels, I don't feel like I advanced my character in any meaningful way - I was fighting the same enemies using the same weapons over and over, earning mostly useless perks and mildly useful skill points. I ended up not finishing it - it got very repetitive, but maybe that's my fault for wandering too much instead of following the main story (but isn't the ability to do that part of the point?).
Aside from that, I found the NPCs to be extremely thin. Most of them just don't have much of interest to say, and as a consequence of that, your own dialogue is pretty threadbare as well. As I recall, Fallout 1 suffered from that a bit as well, but not nearly to this degree.
Many of the points of interest didn't have much going for them, either. Some of them were very cool; you could often find recordings or hack computers to get some backstory on the place and what was or is going on there, and some of the more unique locations were fun to explore in their own right. Others, however, were just generic buildings filled with junk I don't need.
I had fun with it for a few hours, most notably in Greyditch and in the supermarket outside of Megaton, but after that I felt like it stopped trying.

I found the story behind Vault 92 and the fate of Zoe Hammerstein to be emotionally effective; it was possibly the best told story in the game. It was those little touches throughout the world that made it alive. A world where so much stopped all at once really gave the world itself a chance to tell a lot of stories. A message here and a body or gun there; two skeletons lying together in bed, one holding a pistol; cars piled on the highway heading out of town.
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Coelocanth: There's no way you can point to a game and say 'I don't like it, so it's not good for anyone else'.
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Gragt: Indeed, that's something no one should do because preference lies on the emotional level, which varies from people to people, and also for one given person. That's why it's also pointless to debate of preference because everyone is free to like or dislike what they want, without the need to explain it. Quality on the other hand is intrinsinc to the work, can be quantified, and doesn't vary depending to people.

Quality is not the real purpose of IGN's list, however. The purpose is to get people to read it and drive traffic for the site. I'd say it was successful at that, even drawing a fair number of people who are outraged about it.
Post edited August 31, 2009 by Syme
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Coelocanth: There's no way you can point to a game and say 'I don't like it, so it's not good for anyone else'.
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Gragt: Indeed, that's something no one should do because preference lies on the emotional level, which varies from people to people, and also for one given person. That's why it's also pointless to debate of preference because everyone is free to like or dislike what they want, without the need to explain it. Quality on the other hand is intrinsinc to the work, can be quantified, and doesn't vary depending to people.
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Agreed on that, but quality can sometimes be an elusive concept. I also very much enjoyed Fallout3, so to me it was a good game. And that's worth about as much as a used tissue, as far as that goes.
As for quality, I personally thought that was reasonably solid as well. I felt I got my money's worth: the game ran well, I didn't mind the writing (although I admit it could have been better), I encountered no show stopping bugs, I enjoyed the VATS system, and I had no issues with crashing. So for me, the quality was there as well. I do realize others had issues with game crashes and the like. But I didn't.
As for it being pointless to debate preferences, again I completely agree, which is why my first post in the thread said basically that I like what I like and I don't give a fiddler's fart what some website scores a game I enjoyed (or hated).
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Coelocanth: Agreed on that, but quality can sometimes be an elusive concept.

Not really. It just requires a certain mindset to appreciate it, but as with most things the more you do it, the easier it becomes. Knowing what has been done before also helps.
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Coelocanth: I had no issues with crashing. So for me, the quality was there as well. I do realize others had issues with game crashes and the like. But I didn't.

I had nothing but smooth performance until I bought the post-anchorage DLC, then I tended to get slowdown and lockups on a semiregular basis. I can see that affecting people's opinions on bethesda but then I assume all programmers are slack bastards until proven otherwise so I didn't really have any issues there
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Coelocanth: Agreed on that, but quality can sometimes be an elusive concept

Yes and no, quality is the measure of the product to do the job it was designed to do so when it comes to stuff like programming its a straight binary proposition, when it comes to storytelling you basically can't get feedback so there's no way you can accurately gauge it
Post edited September 01, 2009 by Aliasalpha
Gothic 3 is ten times better then both oblivion and Fallout 3 combined.
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Aliasalpha: Yes and no, quality is the measure of the product to do the job it was designed to do so when it comes to stuff like programming its a straight binary proposition, when it comes to storytelling you basically can't get feedback so there's no way you can accurately gauge it

Pretty much exactly what I meant and the reason I said can 'sometimes' be elusive. Many times when I see people rant on about how bad a particular game sucks, and how poor the quality is, they use examples of the story telling or the choices the devs made as an example of it.
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Ois: At least 3 titles that were big console (yes, also PC) releases, and a tears section of lesser known titles... I think that says it all. It does remind me why I don't bother with such lists off such sites.
Comments are interesting, quite a bit of love for 'The Witcher' and other titles.

Oblivion was released on the PC first. then on the 360 and ps3 much later. Thusly it was ported to the console, NOT the other way around like so many seem to think.
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Ois: At least 3 titles that were big console (yes, also PC) releases, and a tears section of lesser known titles... I think that says it all. It does remind me why I don't bother with such lists off such sites.
Comments are interesting, quite a bit of love for 'The Witcher' and other titles.
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wolfar15: Oblivion was released on the PC first. then on the 360 and ps3 much later. Thusly it was ported to the console, NOT the other way around like so many seem to think.

I've not claimed anything on Oblivion's initial release platform.