It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
infinite9: Democracy means rule of the active voting majority. A "real democracy" would basically be a small step above mob rule and doesn't mean freedom, justice, or security. There were technically better freedoms and opportunities to earn a better living in Chile under General Augusto Pinochet, a man who overthrew a Marxist regime, than there are in today's United States under Obama, an asshole who weaseled his way through the elections.
Wtf...you know how they call that day Pinochet "overthrew" this "marxist regime" (in the real world: when the cia killed the democratically elected president)? The first 9/11. Is that what we are praying for here?
high rated
The situation's bad, yes. But that video is as slanted as you can get. Calling the current (or the recent) government a dictatorship is a particularly good example.

I'm not up to date on news as of late, but I remember a few years back when Chavez was winning elections when half the world didn't exactly sympathize with him and there were observers from everywhere looking at the results. If there were indeed irregularities there, it would have been frigging obvious. And with how the media reacts to any left-related scandal in South America, it would have been all over the news. If it wasn't, it probably was because they were pretty clean elections. And there were a couple attempted coups IIRC.

It kind of reminds me how some people say Cuba hasn't had freedom for 50 years. OK, let's say I agree the current regime is not freedom, are you implying Batista's dictatorship was? Or another funny one, how about the Spanish "el pais" newspaper (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but it has quite some interest on South America) going on and on about the evil Chavez attempting to change the constitution to "perpetuate in power". Funny thing is, what he actually wanted to do was to allow for reelection more than once, so a president could remain in power for as long as people kept voting for him. Which is what happens in Spain. How long was Felipe Gonzalez in power, 16 years? But it was totally evil if Chavez did it, just because you know, Spain is awesome and leftist South Americans are not. Even funnier if you stop to realize that the presidential position in Venezuela is the "chief of state", while the Spanish president is just "chief of government" and the actual "chief of state" in Spain is the king, and guy handpicked by a dictator that nobody voted for.

It's clear the situation's not good, with half the country at the throats of the other half and the common people suffering for it. However don't expect me to take your word just on good faith. I do wish that Venezuela (and the rest of the world, for that matter) gets better, but going around pushin all the blame on the "others" who are so totally evil is not the way; me thinks. People need to sit down and talk reasonably to each other, understand each other and reach agreements. I don't think either side is trying that over there.
Ah yes, a "dictatorial" regime which was elected. Funny how that goes, eh?
avatar
solzariv: The mere existence of socialism is a human rights violation.
Implying that Socialism = only ruthless dicatatorship, human rights violations.
Post edited February 26, 2014 by Elmofongo
avatar
Crsldmc:
avatar
Sachys: Thanks for the link man, but it doesnt clarify anything - none of the clips are really put into context and could be anything. I see the same shit on the streets of the UK, and I'm sure many also do in the US / rest of the world.
I'm not saying nothing is happening there (as you and I have talked at some length on these kind of issues), just that it was a damned bad link that says nothing. You give me the equal amount of footage with a single (and obvious) context and you have a news story - mainstream or underground. As well you know I have friends and clients here from Venezuela, and have an amount of understanding and preloaded sympathy to the country and its people, but you need to be fighting it with some decent stuff - this video is as twisted and open to interpretation as any propaganda, mainstream media, extremist view or internet crap out there.
Find that ONE video! :)
It really is, thanks for the feedback mate, I hope to find a better one!

The most important thing is for the world to know what's happening here, we (actually I, many people here think that's the best idea ever, but it's not) are not asking for military intervention or anything, we are just hoping that more countries become aware of our situation so this violence, the violation of human rights and freedom of speech don't go unpunished.
avatar
P1na: The situation's bad, yes. But that video is as slanted as you can get. Calling the current (or the recent) government a dictatorship is a particularly good example.

I'm not up to date on news as of late, but I remember a few years back when Chavez was winning elections when half the world didn't exactly sympathize with him and there were observers from everywhere looking at the results. If there were indeed irregularities there, it would have been frigging obvious. And with how the media reacts to any left-related scandal in South America, it would have been all over the news. If it wasn't, it probably was because they were pretty clean elections. And there were a couple attempted coups IIRC.

It kind of reminds me how some people say Cuba hasn't had freedom for 50 years. OK, let's say I agree the current regime is not freedom, are you implying Batista's dictatorship was? Or another funny one, how about the Spanish "el pais" newspaper (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but it has quite some interest on South America) going on and on about the evil Chavez attempting to change the constitution to "perpetuate in power". Funny thing is, what he actually wanted to do was to allow for reelection more than once, so a president could remain in power for as long as people kept voting for him. Which is what happens in Spain. How long was Felipe Gonzalez in power, 16 years? But it was totally evil if Chavez did it, just because you know, Spain is awesome and leftist South Americans are not. Even funnier if you stop to realize that the presidential position in Venezuela is the "chief of state", while the Spanish president is just "chief of government" and the actual "chief of state" in Spain is the king, and guy handpicked by a dictator that nobody voted for.

It's clear the situation's not good, with half the country at the throats of the other half and the common people suffering for it. However don't expect me to take your word just on good faith. I do wish that Venezuela (and the rest of the world, for that matter) gets better, but going around pushin all the blame on the "others" who are so totally evil is not the way; me thinks. People need to sit down and talk reasonably to each other, understand each other and reach agreements. I don't think either side is trying that over there.
I'm not pushing the blame on all of them, just the goverment, I'm stating that the current goverment is destroying my country, dividing it by ideology (extremists, not the kind you can sit and talk with), applying incredibly wrong economic measures resulting in a total economical breakdown, cutting off any freedom of speech, excluding politically and on any other branch, something as simple as a job application to anybody who is on a "black list" they compilled from everybody who voted against them in the elections (my whole family unable to find a job in any public related organization, or any "private" enterprise controlled by the goverment, we are just banned for them, because we are against the "revolution") I have no hate for the poor people that supports Maduro, but I do hate the ones getting richer by manipulating these humble sector of my country, making them believe we are the enemy when the only thing we're fighting for is a prosper Venezuela, united as one.

Chavez won every election because he had the support of the majority (those in more need, the lower class), which I totally agree it was ignorated by previous goverments, Chavez's goverment started pretty well, he was determined to make this country a lot better, but short story, he failed, he lost the right way long ago, became more radical, started to spread the hate by stating we the "rich" people (essentially anybody who can afford with hard work like my family a decent quality of life, and of course those who were actually rich) hated them, looked at them like filth, that we despise them, and want them to be poor for ever.

Then he started to cut off any freedom of speech, closed a couple TV channels that oposed him, and blame any country (the US was always his first pick, and Maduro does it aswell) for anything happening down here, when it was his own fault, then the criminality started to increase, corruption within police made impossible to stop this outbreak of violence and criminality, which now kills hundreds of Venezuelans every year, the police do nothing to stop them, murders are not investigated unless you pay them for what they're supposed to do, or you're someone famous or simply because you're part of the elite figures within the current goverment.

We have more than a decade with a flawed exchange control that only helped to create a parallel market for USD or any other currency, they do not aprove the amount of money needed by the private enterprises to import raw materials to produce for the country, and it resulted in the actual scarcity of basic domestic items like toilet paper and what-not.

Simply, we fight against a failed and corrupt goverment, so in love with their ideology that they would (and are) destroy this fine piece of land, so rich, before somebody else that does not agree with their ideas rule this country, thus condemning us all.

They talk about compasion, love and understanding and then some minutes after they call us murders, fascist, criminals, traitors, US slaves and so on.

Believe me, they don't want to sit and talk about it, they want us to renounce everything we believe in and become their puppets in their so called paradise.

The only way is to fight for a better country, or leave, which hundreds maybe thousands of Venezuelans do every year.

Thanks for dropping by and leaving your opinion, I'd like to take the chance to thank everybody for doing it aswell, all of us are bound to our own opinions.

EDIT: Did not complete my answer to the chimp. :)
Post edited February 26, 2014 by Crsldmc
avatar
Crsldmc: Then he started to cut off any freedom of speech, closed a couple TV channels that oposed him, and blame any country (the US was always his first pick, and Maduro does it aswell) for anything happening down here
Well now, that definitely needs context as it does not exist in a vacuum. There was the coup attempt against Chavez in 2002, that was actively supported by much of the private media, and was supported outright by the US at least post facto, as they recognised the coup leader.

If it had been a genuine dictator, Pinochet/ Franco/ Stalin/ Hitler etc, against whom that had happened there would have been multiple, probably summary, executions afterwards- especially ersatz President Carmona, who was captured- and the press that supported it would have been disbanded immediately at very best, most likely a lot of people working there would be those executed.

It's one thing for the free press to merely be biased towards particular political parties, which happens everywhere, it's quite another for it to cross over into supporting an active coup. If your horse loses in those circumstances you can hardly hide behind press credentials to protect you, as you've gone far beyond the role of the press. If Fox actively supported a coup against Obama or CNN against Bush they'd both be in trouble if it failed, because that's sedition or treason, depending on where you are.

It's not like Chavez was the greatest proponent of press freedom, of course, he wasn't by a long stretch. But he did have legitimate- certainly so from his point of view- reasons for being so.
avatar
Crsldmc: Then he started to cut off any freedom of speech, closed a couple TV channels that oposed him, and blame any country (the US was always his first pick, and Maduro does it aswell) for anything happening down here
avatar
Phasmid: Well now, that definitely needs context as it does not exist in a vacuum. There was the coup attempt against Chavez in 2002, that was actively supported by much of the private media, and was supported outright by the US at least post facto, as they recognised the coup leader.

If it had been a genuine dictator, Pinochet/ Franco/ Stalin/ Hitler etc, against whom that had happened there would have been multiple, probably summary, executions afterwards- especially ersatz President Carmona, who was captured- and the press that supported it would have been disbanded immediately at very best, most likely a lot of people working there would be those executed.

It's one thing for the free press to merely be biased towards particular political parties, which happens everywhere, it's quite another for it to cross over into supporting an active coup. If your horse loses in those circumstances you can hardly hide behind press credentials to protect you, as you've gone far beyond the role of the press. If Fox actively supported a coup against Obama or CNN against Bush they'd both be in trouble if it failed, because that's sedition or treason, depending on where you are.

It's not like Chavez was the greatest proponent of press freedom, of course, he wasn't by a long stretch. But he did have legitimate- certainly so from his point of view- reasons for being so.
Indeed, but that was in 2002, he wasn't flagged as a Dictator (atleast not by me) during that time nor by the time he died, he was a legitimate leader, always won every election no matter what, the thing people don't understand is that after he was gone, their followers basically used his death and his final words to the people, to put Nicolas Maduro in the presidence just because Chavez wanted it that way (maybe he thought he could pull it off, but he was wrong).

This guy, believe me, he has no idea how to run a country, he has deteriorated the whole place like Chavez never did in only 1 year, he is not by far the leader this country needs, most of us who opposed to Hugo Chavez would rather have him back and give Nicolas away, because this man is so lost, the economical measures taken by the left in the last 14 years were harsh to stupid, but Nicolas' ones have taken the country to it's limits, we're on the brink of an economic shutdown that will deteriorate this country even more, I respect Hugo Chavez, he fought for what he was sure it was the right thing, and in some way it was (helping out those so forsaken by previous goverments) but now is time for a change, a new dawn, a new point of view, that will not exclude people for their ideologies, we must work together, as one, but as long this guys have the power, they'll keep spreading hate and despise for our cause.

So we protest, for freedom, real freedom, to have the same rights as the ones who support the goverment, to be included, to take part in the development of a better country, but they don't want this, it goes far beyond a common interest for Venezuela, it's all about their way of thinking, they call for meetings, to settle it up, to work together and such, but not on mutual standards, it has to be on their standards, socialist standards (who are pretty much failed).

If you're not with the process, the revolution, you're worthless no matter how good you could be to the country, or how good could your ideas be to recuperate this beautiful country to it's former days of peace and "normality", you're a traitor, a fascist, a murderer, a puppet of the "imperialism", we're parasites, we're not Venezuelans and if their leaders say this things, their people do aswell.

Those are only a few things they say of us, nobody would be out there in the streets if this revolution was actually doing something good for Venezuela, it is not, and we must change that fact before it's too late, one of the countries with the largest deposits of oil, and look how we live, in poverty, scarcity, under high rates of murders by criminalism, divided as brothers, just because of an idea, a simple way of thinking, this is not life...

It saddens the heart.. a lot.
I am praying for the people of Venezuela almost every night now.
I have family members from Venezuela - Not sure how they are doing in all honesty since the internet blackout.

Don't worry you are all in my prayers.

- HeadClot
avatar
solzariv: The mere existence of socialism is a human rights violation.
avatar
Elmofongo: Implying that Socialism = only ruthless dicatatorship, human rights violations.
It certainly is a system that presumes "government knows best".
For some years now i have noticed a general worldwide movement in government towards more control of people and meanwhile less control of economies!

Ever seen cattle or sheep at sale yards getting herded through those long fenced corridors.... guess what, that's us! corralled in by petty rules and regulations on every side except for the direction the government wants to herd us.
avatar
Crsldmc: Indeed, but that was in 2002, he wasn't flagged as a Dictator (atleast not by me) during that time nor by the time he died, he was a legitimate leader, always won every election no matter what, the thing people don't understand is that after he was gone, their followers basically used his death and his final words to the people, to put Nicolas Maduro in the presidence just because Chavez wanted it that way (maybe he thought he could pull it off, but he was wrong).

This guy, believe me, he has no idea how to run a country, he has deteriorated the whole place like Chavez never did in only 1 year, he is not by far the leader this country needs, most of us who opposed to Hugo Chavez would rather have him back and give Nicolas away, because this man is so lost, the economical measures taken by the left in the last 14 years were harsh to stupid, but Nicolas' ones have taken the country to it's limits, we're on the brink of an economic shutdown that will deteriorate this country even more, I respect Hugo Chavez, he fought for what he was sure it was the right thing, and in some way it was (helping out those so forsaken by previous goverments) but now is time for a change, a new dawn, a new point of view, that will not exclude people for their ideologies, we must work together, as one, but as long this guys have the power, they'll keep spreading hate and despise for our cause.

So we protest, for freedom, real freedom, to have the same rights as the ones who support the goverment, to be included, to take part in the development of a better country, but they don't want this, it goes far beyond a common interest for Venezuela, it's all about their way of thinking, they call for meetings, to settle it up, to work together and such, but not on mutual standards, it has to be on their standards, socialist standards (who are pretty much failed).

If you're not with the process, the revolution, you're worthless no matter how good you could be to the country, or how good could your ideas be to recuperate this beautiful country to it's former days of peace and "normality", you're a traitor, a fascist, a murderer, a puppet of the "imperialism", we're parasites, we're not Venezuelans and if their leaders say this things, their people do aswell.

Those are only a few things they say of us, nobody would be out there in the streets if this revolution was actually doing something good for Venezuela, it is not, and we must change that fact before it's too late, one of the countries with the largest deposits of oil, and look how we live, in poverty, scarcity, under high rates of murders by criminalism, divided as brothers, just because of an idea, a simple way of thinking, this is not life...

It saddens the heart.. a lot.
You know, this makes me a lot more sympathetic then your original post.
I've read up a little bit about the current crisis in Venezuela and I completely agree: Maduro fucked up. Completely! His economic policies suck, no doubt about that. And that's coming from someone who had a lot of respect for Chávez.

But accusing him of being a dictator and forging the elections? I think that's going a little bit to far. Don't you think it's not only possible, but very, very likely that the Venezuelan people actually voted for Maduro, not because they thought he was the best man for the job, but just because Hugo Chávez died recently and he was hyped up as his political heir? I've seen something similar (of course on a lot smaller scale) in my own country.

I'm an atheist, so I won't pray, but I really hope your country comes out of this situation peacefully. That there will neither be a coup d'etat, nor a civil war, but free elections for a new government.
And when those elections come, I hope you will get a leader that honors Hugo Chávez' memory, and won't be a libertarian fuckwad who will sell out his countries recourses, but actually try to make Venezuela a better place for everyone.

Good luck!
avatar
djranis: hold true dude change will come to this world
If history is anything to go by...... it wont
avatar
djranis: hold true dude change will come to this world
avatar
king_mosiah: If history is anything to go by...... it wont
Not entirely true..... because like the seasons it keeps changing, but yes the winters always last much longer.
avatar
Crsldmc: Indeed, but that was in 2002, he wasn't flagged as a Dictator (atleast not by me) during that time nor by the time he died, he was a legitimate leader, always won every election no matter what, the thing people don't understand is that after he was gone, their followers basically used his death and his final words to the people, to put Nicolas Maduro in the presidence just because Chavez wanted it that way (maybe he thought he could pull it off, but he was wrong).

This guy, believe me, he has no idea how to run a country, he has deteriorated the whole place like Chavez never did in only 1 year, he is not by far the leader this country needs, most of us who opposed to Hugo Chavez would rather have him back and give Nicolas away, because this man is so lost, the economical measures taken by the left in the last 14 years were harsh to stupid, but Nicolas' ones have taken the country to it's limits, we're on the brink of an economic shutdown that will deteriorate this country even more, I respect Hugo Chavez, he fought for what he was sure it was the right thing, and in some way it was (helping out those so forsaken by previous goverments) but now is time for a change, a new dawn, a new point of view, that will not exclude people for their ideologies, we must work together, as one, but as long this guys have the power, they'll keep spreading hate and despise for our cause.

So we protest, for freedom, real freedom, to have the same rights as the ones who support the goverment, to be included, to take part in the development of a better country, but they don't want this, it goes far beyond a common interest for Venezuela, it's all about their way of thinking, they call for meetings, to settle it up, to work together and such, but not on mutual standards, it has to be on their standards, socialist standards (who are pretty much failed).

If you're not with the process, the revolution, you're worthless no matter how good you could be to the country, or how good could your ideas be to recuperate this beautiful country to it's former days of peace and "normality", you're a traitor, a fascist, a murderer, a puppet of the "imperialism", we're parasites, we're not Venezuelans and if their leaders say this things, their people do aswell.

Those are only a few things they say of us, nobody would be out there in the streets if this revolution was actually doing something good for Venezuela, it is not, and we must change that fact before it's too late, one of the countries with the largest deposits of oil, and look how we live, in poverty, scarcity, under high rates of murders by criminalism, divided as brothers, just because of an idea, a simple way of thinking, this is not life...

It saddens the heart.. a lot.
avatar
Fesin: You know, this makes me a lot more sympathetic then your original post.
I've read up a little bit about the current crisis in Venezuela and I completely agree: Maduro fucked up. Completely! His economic policies suck, no doubt about that. And that's coming from someone who had a lot of respect for Chávez.

But accusing him of being a dictator and forging the elections? I think that's going a little bit to far. Don't you think it's not only possible, but very, very likely that the Venezuelan people actually voted for Maduro, not because they thought he was the best man for the job, but just because Hugo Chávez died recently and he was hyped up as his political heir? I've seen something similar (of course on a lot smaller scale) in my own country.

I'm an atheist, so I won't pray, but I really hope your country comes out of this situation peacefully. That there will neither be a coup d'etat, nor a civil war, but free elections for a new government.
And when those elections come, I hope you will get a leader that honors Hugo Chávez' memory, and won't be a libertarian fuckwad who will sell out his countries recourses, but actually try to make Venezuela a better place for everyone.

Good luck!
It's a theory we've explored, maybe you're correct, he could have won due to the hype, but the fact that it's proven that people who were long gone from this world did vote for him, why do we know it was for him? the CNE the organ who's supposed to organize, control and supervise the whole process is completely composed of goverment supporters, there is no space for logic that dictates that such votes could have gone to us the oposition, I remember a woman stating his father who was dead already appeared as authorized to vote, who did he vote for then? I don't know, that's why it's a theory we can accept that easily, the small difference Maduro won the elections is nothing compared to Hugo Chavez's victories, which sometimes were abysmal in comparison with the oposition results.

But you're right, this time we almost won, forgery or not, that means if he keeps fucking up like he is currently doing I see a clearer path during the elections.

Saying it's a dictatorial regime is a bit too far I know, as you and many guys here may have noticed my english is not that accurate sometimes, but I'm someone who likes to receive feedback.

Let's say it's an authoritarian-like regime? sounds more accurate to the current situation, I'll edit my first post.

Thank you for your support!
avatar
Elmofongo: Implying that Socialism = only ruthless dicatatorship, human rights violations.
avatar
solzariv: It certainly is a system that presumes "government knows best".
Well I for one believes that Socialism has not even been truly used as envisioned Karl Marx, I mean the nations that accepted socialism/communism never used Marxism instead the Soviet Union made 2 of their own version of Communism in the form of Leninism and Stalinism and China with Maoism and I think I can tell that Cuba and North Korea are not using Marxism. I just think this is a government thats just been corrupted by bad people. (even though personally Castro is not as worse as his Communist peers and the Dictator before him, Batista, was way worse.)

Personally I would prefer Democratic Socialism, why not combine the best of both worlds.