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I dunno, some games (actually, a lot of them) don't have demos, so if it's a game I've been dying to try and it doesn't have a demo level, I sometimes just torrent it to try it out and if I like it, I buy it (for example, Oblivion). It takes a great deal of psychological effort to actually uninstall the torrented game so I can buy it, because part of my brain is like, "You already have it, why bother?"
Call me a pirate, call me a criminal, I don't care anymore.
Post edited April 18, 2009 by michaelleung
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yazleb: That all being said, I have something to say to the people who stole Demigod.
...

Well said, but you can even write an essay about how is piracy wrong, spineless pirates will just say something like: "Meh, I don't care. I want it free, so GTFO." And there is a plenty of them.
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michaelleung: I dunno, some games (actually, a lot of them) don't have demos, so if it's a game I've been dying to try and it doesn't have a demo level, I sometimes just torrent it to try it out and if I like it, I buy it (for example, Oblivion).

I won't call you criminal for this. It is the developer's fault that they didn't release a demo. Buying a 30€+ game just to know that it is only a hyped shit (Far Cry 2 was hyped, but it is crap anyways) will make me really angry and next time I will think twice before buying something.
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michaelleung: I dunno, some games (actually, a lot of them) don't have demos, so if it's a game I've been dying to try and it doesn't have a demo level, I sometimes just torrent it to try it out and if I like it, I buy it (for example, Oblivion).
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klaymen: I won't call you criminal for this. It is the developer's fault that they didn't release a demo. Buying a 30€+ game just to know that it is only a hyped shit (Far Cry 2 was hyped, but it is crap anyways) will make me really angry and next time I will think twice before buying something.

Thus, you would likely torrent games in the future...
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michaelleung: Thus, you would likely torrent games in the future...

Probably no. I will wait for the people's reviews (I don't trust gaming magazines and their reviews, they will even lick your ass if you pay them for it). I won't buy new games anyways (maybe except Guild Wars 2 and a few another games), because most of them are only crap with polished graphics and shallow gameplay.
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Arkose: A good example of this is YouTube. People constantly upload episodes of Naruto or whatever despite the Terms of Service clearly stating that uploads must be user-created or allowed to be reproduced; YouTube cannot possibly stop all these infringements but responds swiftly when a copyright holder brings it to their attention. Some copyright holders don't care about some types of uploads done without their permission (especially trailers of movies and games) and simply won't bother asking YouTube to remove them.

YouTube is a good example of the possible positive side effects of copyright infringements. I went to see Jeff Dunham here in Copenhagen on April 11th. Were it not for the rampant uploads of copyrighted material of his to YouTube, noone in Europe would ever have heard of him, and he would never have come here in the first place. He knows this, and he approves. How could he not? Copyright infringement is the direct cause of his international popularity. He even stated that quite clearly on stage.
So, have I "illegally" downloaded copyrighted material of his? Oh yes, most definitely. What I have also done, as a direct result of that, is bought all three of his DVDs, and paid about $100 to go see his show. Do you think he would want to punish me?
That's why I think that all artists should go NIN and release their entire discography online FREE, sell CDs in stores, and recoup their losses from tours, merchandise, etc.
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yazleb: Demigod has no DRM, Stardock respects gamers...

Just wondering: does retail boxed game force Impulse, GfWL or other 3rd party crap/spy/malware to be installed to be able to play singleplayer?
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yazleb: Demigod has no DRM, Stardock respects gamers...
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Petrell: Just wondering: does retail boxed game force Impulse, GfWL or other 3rd party crap/spy/malware to be installed to be able to play singleplayer?

Impulse is needed for patches, I know that...
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Petrell: Just wondering: does retail boxed game force Impulse, GfWL or other 3rd party crap/spy/malware to be installed to be able to play singleplayer?
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michaelleung: Impulse is needed for patches, I know that...

If impulse were only just a patching program... Oh well, there goes another game I won't be buying. It's getting hader and harder to find games that are not tied to some sort of crapware these days :( (Steam, Impulse, Games for Windows Live to name a few)
Edit: Demigod beta seem to indicate it's more or less multiplayer only game so never would have bought it in the first place anyway. Thanks anyway.
Post edited April 18, 2009 by Petrell
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yazleb: Demigod has no DRM, Stardock respects gamers and yet 120,000 copies were pirated in a couple of days.

Not strictly true, Demigod requires online activation apparently.
Souce: http://reclaimyourgame.com/
Let's explore how my habits have changed over the past few years with respect to buying, respectively, music, movies, and games.
I used to buy a lot of music, averaging around 5 new albums a month, for about 5 years while I was in the latter part of high school / military / early studies. Today, I basically don't buy music at all - 0 albums last year, 0 so far this year. Why is this? Because of my earlier purchases, I already have most of the music I'm ever interested in listening to, and also find that music is too expensive in general.
The exact same thing can be said about movies. I have all the good ones, and while I still buy 2-3 movies a month, it's not comparable to what I bought before.
I have around 300 movies on DVD and probably 200 albums, by the way.
In comparison, I was never buying games before. Now, I buy all of them. The biggest impact on the rate of my games purchase is - convenience and availability. With several digital distribution platforms, finding good games at even better prices are becoming increasingly simple and hence my rate of purchase is up. The same can in no way be said about movies and music, where the convenience, availability, and price factors have either stayed at the same level or worsened over the past 10 years.
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Zolgar: No, it NEEDS to be stopped, the sheer number of people who break the law do it because THEY CAN FUCKING GET AWAY WITH IT, it's that simple.
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DarrkPhoenix: Careful now, your Shift key will get worn out if you keeping shouting so much. Now explain to me, just why is there such a pressing need to stop copyright infringement? Actually, let's go back even further: why should we even have copyright in the first place? Without a good reason to have copyright it cannot be argued that copyright infringement should be considered a problem (or what kind of problem it should be considered), and without being able to argue that copyright infringement is a problem one can hardly then argue that such infringement needs to be stopped.
You see, while a low probability of consequences is a contributing factor to why people break laws, it is by no means the only factor, or even, I'll contend, the major factor. There are a hell of a lot of laws I could break, with almost no chance of being caught; this goes for most people. And yet we don't go around breaking these laws left and right. Why not? Because most of us recognize the reasons behind these laws, and thus the harm we'd be doing (to either individuals, society as a whole, or both) if we were to break the laws. It's the societal mores that keep us in line more than the fear of punishment. The only reason why we even need these mores codified into laws with punishments attached is to deal with a fairly small minority who have little or no concern for the harm they'd be doing if not for fear of punishment. However, when you have a law that runs contrary to the mores of a significant percentage of the population all you have left preventing all those people from violating the law is fear of punishment, and when the chance of getting caught then drops to near zero you have the situation we currently see with copyright infringement.
So how do you go about addressing this? There's the solution you seem to be advocating, which is focusing on the punishment part of the equation. However, this does nothing to address the underlying issue (the disconnect between a society's laws and mores), and requires that the government's relationship with the governed become ever more authoritarian and oppressive. And eventually you'll see a backlash, likely political, but possibly violent, depending on how long things have been building up. Not pretty. The better solution is to address the underlying problem, by harmonizing society's laws and mores. One extreme in doing this is to try to alter society's mores to conform to its laws. Several content providers have been trying this for some time ("You wouldn't steal a car..."), and I think we can see how well that approach has been working. The other extreme is to fully change society's laws to conform to its changing mores (in this particular case that would be fully doing away with copyright). There's also a full spectrum of compromises between these two extremes, which is typically the way you want to go (as there is at least some portion of society who has mores that led to the problematic law to begin with); in short, what needs to happen is the problematic law needs to be altered enough to be palatable to as large a portion of society as possible, and also needs to reconcile conflicting mores to as great an extent as possible, with the compromises involved being understandable and acceptable to as many people as possible.
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Zolgar: Copyright laws protect intellectual property.

Well, glad we got that one settled. Now, for the bigger question, just why should we have the artificial construct of "intellectual property" to begin with?
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Zolgar: Now answer me this. How exactly are those laws in need of being fixed?

Glad you asked. Copyright is supposed to be a bargain between creators and the rest of society. Creators are granted a temporary monopoly on the reproduction of their works to assist them in financially recouping their investment, as an incentive for them to create. In exchange for this temporary monopoly, society gets full use of the work once the monopoly is up (the work falls into the public domain). The major problem with current copyright laws is that this monopoly content creators are granted is no longer temporary for any practical purposes (currently the length is life of the creator plus 70 years in the US). Society isn't exactly getting much in return for the monopoly we've given content creators.
The first and major thing that needs to be done is to drastically reduce the length of copyright. Original length was 14 years with an additional 14 years if renewed. Since distribution methods have become far cheaper and far, far faster this length should to be reduced even further. Copyright should be for 5 years, with the possibility for a one-time 5 year renewal upon payment of a fee of 5-10% of the total gross revenue gathered from the work in the first 5 years. Additionally, the use of any technical barriers that would hinder use or reproduction of the work once in the public domain voids any copyright protection (e.g. DRM and copyright are an either/or proposition). Next, damages in copyright infringement cases are limited to 3x actual damages (retail cost of the work infringed, multiplied by number of times infringement occurred) for non-commercial infringement, and 3-10x actual damages for commercial infringement (with possible criminal penalties depending on the specifics of the case). Fair use needs to be more specifically defined, and also more broadly defined for non-commercial purposes; bringing repeatedly legal action against those exercising their fair use rights results in forfeiture of the copyright in question. There's a fair bit more I'd also change, but it starts branching out into other laws that are related to copyright but not an explicit part of it, so I'll leave it there for now.

I'm just simply going to say this:
Your views on the copyright laws indicate you have never tried to make money off something you created, and have too limited of a view to see past "Well, I don't want to pay for a 10 year old video game."
Writers often struggle to make money until they make it big. Are you saying that we should now make them PAY 5 years later to restore their rights to make money off their book, for another 5 years? It would make it even harder for writers to become full-time professional writers.
Same thing with musicians. A small ind musician should only be able to make money off their album sales for 5, maybe 10 years?
Game companies shouldn't be able to still make money off f old games that people STILL want to play after 10 years?
Let me put this in to another perspective, one that you might understand:
When you create something, you own it. Copyrights are in place because intellectual property isn't exactly a physical thing, but none the less it is something you own.
What you are proposing here is about on par with this scenario:
"911 what is your emergency?"
"Someone stole my car!"
"What year was your car, sir?"
"Uh.. 1998, why?"
"I'm sorry sir, but your car is more than 10 years old so you don't own it anymore. *click*"
Don't think that that scenario is equal?
It expresses losing ownership of something, simply because it is more than 10 years old. Which is what you are proposing copyright holders should have to put up with.
Copyright should extend for the lifespan of the creator. (Perhaps with a hard cap on it.) The other things you've expressed.. maybe, but the friend is here so I don't have the time to go in to that.
Completely deserved, and their attitude was so bad they deserve it just for being idiots.
Post edited April 18, 2009 by MLR
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Zolgar: I'm just simply going to say this:
Your views on the copyright laws indicate you have never tried to make money off something you created, and have too limited of a view to see past "Well, I don't want to pay for a 10 year old video game."

The fact that I do pay money for 10 year old games even when pirated versions are readily available pretty much trashes your last statement. As for never having tried to make money off of what I've created... well, sit down kid, I'll tell you a little about what I do. I work as a medicinal chemist at a small pharmaceutical company- basically I try to design new drugs. While my company doesn't deal with copyrights, we do deal with patents. As I said, the company I work at is fairly small compared to the rest of the industry, only about 100 employees, but even at this size our burn rate is around $60-70 million a year, and that's without even having any phase 3 clinicals currently in progress. Bringing a single drug to market usually takes 8-10 years from project inception. Without having patents that allow us to monetize the compounds we design and make our entire industry wouldn't even be able to exist in its current form. And despite all this I also think that the patent system needs to undergo major reform (trimming down patent length a bit and narrowing the scope of what patents can claim). I hold this belief because I see patents having gone beyond what is necessary to provide incentive for invention, to the point where they're actually detrimental to further invention, and thus doing harm to society. I see copyrights as having the same problem, to an even greater extent.
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Zolgar: Writers often struggle to make money until they make it big. Are you saying that we should now make them PAY 5 years later to restore their rights to make money off their book, for another 5 years? It would make it even harder for writers to become full-time professional writers.

If they made little or no money in the first 5 years then the fee wouldn't be very large, now would it (pop quiz: what's 5% of zero?) If the first work they created hasn't made much money after 10 years, but has earned the writer some recognition and popularity, then all they need to do is write another book and cash in on that popularity. Imagine that, actually having to do work to keep getting paid. The thing is, no one is entitled to receive money- it's each person's responsibility to figure out how to market their labor, goods, or creative works in a way that is profitable for them. If a creator isn't able to figure out how to do that within 10 years then that's their problem. We as society gave them that 5-10 year monopoly as an incentive to create, it's them that wasn't able to figure out a good way to put it to use.
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Zolgar: Same thing with musicians. A small ind musician should only be able to make money off their album sales for 5, maybe 10 years?

They can continue to make as much money as they are able, just without the support of an artificial monopoly granted by the public. Or they could make money off of monetizing their work in other ways, such as concerts (which is where most musicians make the bulk of their money anyway).
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Zolgar: Game companies shouldn't be able to still make money off f old games that people STILL want to play after 10 years?

Again, of course they can continue to make money off of the game they made, they just need to figure out a way to do so without the public extending their artificial monopoly.
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Zolgar: Let me put this in to another perspective, one that you might understand:
When you create something, you own it. Copyrights are in place because intellectual property isn't exactly a physical thing, but none the less it is something you own.

The concept of ownership breaks down for things that can be duplicated infinitely at no cost. At its most basic level, "intellectual property" is simply an idea. When you have an idea it remains your sole possession only for as long as you do not share it. But the moment you do so the person you share it with is also given possession of that idea. In fact they are given possession to such an extent that they are not able to dispossess themself of that idea, even if they wanted to. At the same time, though, in sharing that idea you are not dispossessed of it; it still belongs to you, it just also belongs to whoever you shared it with as well. And this continues every time the idea is shared. Once you fully understand this, it is inevitable that one comes to understand that claiming "ownership" of an idea is completely unrelated to any conventional sense of ownership, but rather is an attempt to control what other people may do with ideas they possess, and no longer has anything to do with control of your own idea. To quote Richard Stallman on the matter: "Control over the use of one's ideas really constitutes control over other people's lives; and it is usually used to make their lives more difficult."
The idea of "intellectual property" is completely divorced from any conventional concept of ownership. Rather, it is an entirely artificial construct (and a quite recent one at that, taken in the scope of human history), created for the practical purpose of providing incentive for the creation of creative works. However, copyright as it currently stands goes far beyond what is necessary to accomplish this goal, and actually does much to work against it, which is why it needs to be changed.
Finally, I'll finish up by saying that people with your perspective on copyright strike me as incredibly childish. This is because creative works are not developed in a vacuum, but rather are built upon thousands of years of collected culture. Billions of creators before you have laid out this culture that you have freely immersed yourself in, but then the moment you use this culture to create some slightly new amalgam of it you greedily clutch it to your chest, screaming "Mine! Mine! All mine!" Grow up.
Post edited April 18, 2009 by DarrkPhoenix
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DarrkPhoenix: The idea of "intellectual property" is completely divorced from any conventional concept of ownership. Rather, it is an entirely artificial construct (and a quite recent one at that, taken in the scope of human history), created for the practical purpose of providing incentive for the creation of creative works. However, copyright as it currently stands goes far beyond what is necessary to accomplish this goal, and actually does much to work against it, which is why it needs to be changed.
Finally, I'll finish up by saying that people with your perspective on copyright strike me as incredibly childish. This is because creative works are not developed in a vacuum, but rather are built upon thousands of years of collected culture. Billions of creators before you have laid out this culture that you have freely immersed yourself in, but then the moment you use this culture to create some slightly new amalgam of it you greedily clutch it to your chest, screaming "Mine! Mine! All mine!" Grow up.

This is a nice post, I enjoyed reading it.
And as you said earlier when you create a law that law has to serve the greater good.
In the olden days patenting and copyrights were enforced to encourage scientific,creative and cultural growth.
Now I don't see the connection any more.
It was also demanded of the inventor to show how their invention could serve the greater good. If the inventor was unable to do that than the king/emperor/wha'evvah didn't grant them a patent to commercially exploit the invention for a limited period of time (1, 3, 6 or in extreme cases even 12 years)
For more info about this subject watch this fantastic speech about the way that copyrights are in fact strangling creativity as opposed to encouraging it.
I'd recommend it.
I also use his presentation all the time to lecture my peers and subordinates how to give a successful presentation, his skills are really remarkable.
So if you haven't seen this already, enjoy!
Post edited April 18, 2009 by Zhirek