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keeveek: Well, I don't think that would be welcome by a publisher. Even if they actually accepted your money, the major problem is accounting. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want be bothered by accounting small amounts of money being "donated" to them. Not to mention they would have to pay donation tax = even more accounting...
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JCD-Bionicman: They have people working accounts for them though. The people managing their finances might not like it, but they have no choice, and as long as they get paid, what's the difference to them if they're managing small or large sums of money?
I've been tempted to do so sometime. There was this occasion were an author of a comic I had read online, but had never paid for as it was not available in my country, came over to sign the first volume which was (at last) being released locally. I passed by and got the first volume signed, but I was really tempted to pay up for everything right there in cash and give it to him, directly. In the end I didn't, but I wonder what kind of reaction that would have sparked.
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keeveek: Because it's a freaking busywork that isn't worth for that few extra dollars.
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JCD-Bionicman: Eh? Did you read what I wrote?
Big corporartions teat 10k€ as small change. The effort of asking someone to take care of 20€ is absolutely not worth it to them.
Post edited January 28, 2013 by P1na
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JCD-Bionicman: Eh? Did you read what I wrote? If someone donated ME a dollar I probably wouldn't bother cashing it in either, but being corporations they have people managing finances for them, so they do whatever "busywork" they're paid to do, regardless about how they feel about it. Understand now?
You clearly don't understand two things:
a) how accounting works
b) that time isn't infinite good.

Accounting for such huge companies is a bitch. They usually barely manage to "close" the books within accounting periods anyway. And no, expanding the accounting office for few extra bucks isn't worth it This is why big companies choose not to sell directly - they rather want to receive bigger amounts of money at once from distributors than counting every small transaction alone. You think they are playing checkers now and watching redtube so they have plenty extra time for accounting your pennies?

For smaller companies, indie devs etc., it should be much easier, and indie companies usually provide you with bank account data needed for donations.

Also, why do yoy ask a question if you react with aggression to response? No wonder your rep is the lowest of lows.
Consider being blacklisted.
Post edited January 28, 2013 by keeveek
Yeah; I should have read that(my own post) lol. Didn't say it well at all. I was trying to show an example of the same arguments(wouldn't have bought it anyway argument used against lost revenue argument, unlimited copies so what did i steal, I only took it cause you overcharge) ect but it doesn't really work as well as it seemed at the time I guess. (Got caught up in the simile and killed my point. also I didn't describe it that well anyway)
_________
Clarification more than a reply really:
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GameRager: The funny thing is that's EXACTLY what most people do when they buy a game on sale for whatever reason(Dictating the price at which they're willing to buy a game a seller has on offer.). The only major differences is one is legal and one isn't, and one is more morally acceptable to some people.

Also a buyer has more options then buying a game at whatever price the seller asks for or not......they could wait for a sale, or buy the game from a different vendor.
You misunderstood. That was included in the "pay or don't buy" thing. If you don't want to pay the price don't buy it. If the price is dropped to where it is worth it to you and you buy it then thats part of it. I don't mean pay 1st day prices*. But its up to the seller to put it on sale and when.
clarifying:
When something gets cheaper or goes temporally on sale the seller has changed the price to meet the consumers who think it should be cheaper.
The potential customer doesn't get to take what they want on the off chance the price will drop enough later that they feel like paying, they have to wait until it happens. (full price is the extra you pay to get it right then and there instead of later.)
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GameRager: 1. Actually, imho I DO have the right(morally/etc)..
Oh? Why? Not the legal right certainly. As for moral....How could the rights to somebody else's property possibly be up to you? ...just because you/others think you do doesn't mean those it belongs to automatically don't or can't/shouldn't think or act as they do regarding such matters.
(Unless you're talking "law of the jungle" morals like "I have the right because you can't or won't stop me" in which case the argument would also be in favor of the copyright owner could just send assassins to fight piracy lol)
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GameRager: C. (Once again) NOT ALL PIRATES DO SO TO AVOID PAYING FOR THINGS. (I wish those against piracy would stop parroting the "All/most pirates pirate to avoid paying for stuff or because they're cheap." line as if it's fact.)
you really think even half of them only do so to get a demo(playing the game through isnt a demo...maybe an hour or the first level(whichever is shorter) tops imo...besides thats what rental services are for so theres some lost revenue there fore you), intend to pay later when its on sale/cheaper(cause you know....they're impatient and feel entitled to have it now instead of later when its on sale/cheaper), already paid and only pirated to get a drm free copy, or only do so because it isn't available to buy anymore(and how many who dl abandonware do you honestly think will pay for it if it becomes available in the future on say..gog)? (a bit hypocritical of me I know but not really so against the later 2 (provided they pay for abandonware the instant it no longer is and the reason they wanted drm free wasn't to give copies to all their friends))
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GameRager: Actually, the whole "lost sale" argument has a fair bit of evidence(direct/anecdotal) that proves it false. Not all people who pirate a game/movie/etc would have bought it were there no means of getting it illegally
Doesn't matter if they wouldn't pay for it anyway. Thats irreverent to the act of taking it against the will of the owner.
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GameRager: (Maybe they're broke/near broke, and couldn't have paid for what they pirated even if they wanted to[Note that I am not advocating this as a reason for piracy, but rather using it as an example of how the lost sale argument has been proven untrue.].).
As far as not affording it having the latest entertainment isn't a basic inborn right. If they can't afford the new games there are plenty of budget ones and as you already pointed out there are always sales. I don't understand the people who say(I know you don't) that thats a valid excuse to steal(if not precisely the legal definition than as far as the colloquial use of the word to mean "to take it against the owner's wishes" because I don't know another) it. Especially since it isn't even a "poverty" issue its an impatience one coupled with a lame excuse.
_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _ _
* games are a business and I'm not a charity. If they want me to pay $70 for a game that almost certainly will have another $30 in dlc(some of which probably comes out the first week and some of it maybe even already present on disk and could easily have been part of the game anyway) it'd better be a very good one or I'll probably just pick up the goty version with the dlc included for half that later. there're too many older(recent older...like a year)good games I don't have yet for to throw my $ away in some effort to "support the industry" I just bought (new copy for those who care)masseffect trilogy for less than the cost of any one of them because I had other things to do when they first came out. So "I pirate because I can't afford it" doesn't make any sense to me. They're just impatient lazy dicks not the sympathetic downtrodden poor
Post edited January 28, 2013 by pseudonarne
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Zolgar: To you it's irrelevant, to me it's not.

To me, it is about the number of people who can simultaneously utilize the copy of the media.
I wasn't giving you my opinion. It is completely irrelevant financially speaking as far as the publisher is concerned. Your entitled to an opinion. Have an opinion that gravity doesn't exist if you wish, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

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Zolgar: If I SELL my book, and later want to re-read it, I have to either borrow it from a friend (who then can no longer re-read it until I give it back) or go buy it again.
If I COPY my book, then while my friend can re-read it all he wants, so can I.

So if we assume both my friend and I are the sort of people who do not pirate items, then me giving or selling him a used copy of a game, while maybe technically against the EULA, is not really any different than me buying the game for him for Christmas. I just kinda played it first >.>
You said it yourself, "...while maybe technically against the EULA."

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Zolgar: Likening buying used books to stealing is... I'm sorry, it's more idiotic than likening piracy to stealing. Even if we want to use this idiotic notion though, let's look at it on the grand scale:
Resale market: 2-10 people experience the content for a single purchase price
Piracy: 2-10,000 people experience the content for a single purchase price.
"...while maybe technically against the EULA." And I'm the one being idiotic?

And also, what do those particular numbers matter? Stealing is stealing, regardless of how many people perform the act.

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Zolgar: There are two things you're not considering though that prove that the book and music industry are fine with the resale market though, the video game industry is the only one being cockbags about it:
Libraries, used book/cd stores. In both instances, plenty of people can utilize the same copy of whatever media for only one being sold- however, only one person can utilize said piece of media at any given time. If book publishers were as bad as game publishers, used book stores woulda been shut down ages ago. :p
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thelovebat: In a similar notion, what about the local stores or big chains like Blockbuster that for years allowed you to rent games? A store buys one copy while for that one copy 6-7 people over a 2 month span might rent it. So not only is money going to the store renting it out for each customer, after the first rental doesn't that mean that the publisher is losing a "potential" sale? Or does it just mean that those people would've bought the game if it was at a lower price point to begin with? Many games these days can be completed in a 2-3 day rental period, or a 5 day rental period for the longer games like RPGs.

So lets say several years ago Blockbuster got in 5 copies of Fallout 3 for the 360. We can assume that's about $300 (probably a little less) spent for those copies of the games. These are all rental copies. For lets say, a 4 month span in which the price stays at $60 to buy the game about 50 people rent out these 5 copies over that span. What isn't the issue here is how much money Blockbuster is making off the deal, as with rental businesses breaking even takes a small bit of time and profits are about long term rental value. What could be the issue is out of all those people that rented the game, how many of them would a publisher equate to a lost sale? Would they subtract only the first 5 people for the 5 copies and consider it 45 lost sales?
I used to have a friend that owned a local movie and game rental business. He had to pay way over retail price for games and movies as part of the rental agreement. Renters do not pay standard retail price for products. He had special agreements with the copyright holders. This was many years ago though, I have no idea exactly how it works now.

I know that it's illegal for consumers to buy a game and simply rent it out. It's also illegal to host public viewings of movies you've purchased, and especially so to charge admission for the viewings. You also have to get special permission to use artist's music for public events, and would have to pay royalties if you're going to profit from that event. Clearly these other industries are not always okay with second hand use of their products.
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Zolgar: Even if we want to use this idiotic notion though, let's look at it on the grand scale:
Resale market: 2-10 people experience the content for a single purchase price
Piracy: 2-10,000 people experience the content for a single purchase price.
The number of people who "experience the content" doesn't mean much. Most people who download pirated versions of software will buy it if they like it once the price drops to their WTP.

Of course, there is software that makes you think "wow, thank goodness I didn't pay for this crap" instead of "cool, I'll pay $15 for this to support developers". In these cases developers and publishers do indeed lose out on profit. Do they deserve to? Hell yes.

Developing good software and avoiding overpricing go a long way in curbing piracy.
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Zolgar: Even if we want to use this idiotic notion though, let's look at it on the grand scale:
Resale market: 2-10 people experience the content for a single purchase price
Piracy: 2-10,000 people experience the content for a single purchase price.
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drennan: The number of people who "experience the content" doesn't mean much. Most people who download pirated versions of software will buy it if they like it once the price drops to their WTP.
You are being a bit too naive if you think most pirates will pay for things after they have already experienced and consumed them.
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Zolgar: Even if we want to use this idiotic notion though, let's look at it on the grand scale:
Resale market: 2-10 people experience the content for a single purchase price
Piracy: 2-10,000 people experience the content for a single purchase price.
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drennan: The number of people who "experience the content" doesn't mean much. Most people who download pirated versions of software will buy it if they like it once the price drops to their WTP.
really?
says who
[paraphrase]I wish those in favor of piracy would stop parroting the "All/most pirates will later choose to pay for stuff they already have" like its fact[/paraphrase]
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Zolgar: To you it's irrelevant, to me it's not.

To me, it is about the number of people who can simultaneously utilize the copy of the media.
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Qwertyman: I wasn't giving you my opinion. It is completely irrelevant financially speaking as far as the publisher is concerned. Your entitled to an opinion. Have an opinion that gravity doesn't exist if you wish, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

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Zolgar: If I SELL my book, and later want to re-read it, I have to either borrow it from a friend (who then can no longer re-read it until I give it back) or go buy it again.
If I COPY my book, then while my friend can re-read it all he wants, so can I.

So if we assume both my friend and I are the sort of people who do not pirate items, then me giving or selling him a used copy of a game, while maybe technically against the EULA, is not really any different than me buying the game for him for Christmas. I just kinda played it first >.>
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Qwertyman: You said it yourself, "...while maybe technically against the EULA."

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Zolgar: Likening buying used books to stealing is... I'm sorry, it's more idiotic than likening piracy to stealing. Even if we want to use this idiotic notion though, let's look at it on the grand scale:
Resale market: 2-10 people experience the content for a single purchase price
Piracy: 2-10,000 people experience the content for a single purchase price.
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Qwertyman: "...while maybe technically against the EULA." And I'm the one being idiotic?

And also, what do those particular numbers matter? Stealing is stealing, regardless of how many people perform the act.

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Zolgar: There are two things you're not considering though that prove that the book and music industry are fine with the resale market though, the video game industry is the only one being cockbags about it:
Libraries, used book/cd stores. In both instances, plenty of people can utilize the same copy of whatever media for only one being sold- however, only one person can utilize said piece of media at any given time. If book publishers were as bad as game publishers, used book stores woulda been shut down ages ago. :p
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Qwertyman:
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thelovebat: In a similar notion, what about the local stores or big chains like Blockbuster that for years allowed you to rent games? A store buys one copy while for that one copy 6-7 people over a 2 month span might rent it. So not only is money going to the store renting it out for each customer, after the first rental doesn't that mean that the publisher is losing a "potential" sale? Or does it just mean that those people would've bought the game if it was at a lower price point to begin with? Many games these days can be completed in a 2-3 day rental period, or a 5 day rental period for the longer games like RPGs.

So lets say several years ago Blockbuster got in 5 copies of Fallout 3 for the 360. We can assume that's about $300 (probably a little less) spent for those copies of the games. These are all rental copies. For lets say, a 4 month span in which the price stays at $60 to buy the game about 50 people rent out these 5 copies over that span. What isn't the issue here is how much money Blockbuster is making off the deal, as with rental businesses breaking even takes a small bit of time and profits are about long term rental value. What could be the issue is out of all those people that rented the game, how many of them would a publisher equate to a lost sale? Would they subtract only the first 5 people for the 5 copies and consider it 45 lost sales?
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Qwertyman: I used to have a friend that owned a local movie and game rental business. He had to pay way over retail price for games and movies as part of the rental agreement. Renters do not pay standard retail price for products. He had special agreements with the copyright holders. This was many years ago though, I have no idea exactly how it works now.

I know that it's illegal for consumers to buy a game and simply rent it out. It's also illegal to host public viewings of movies you've purchased, and especially so to charge admission for the viewings. You also have to get special permission to use artist's music for public events, and would have to pay royalties if you're going to profit from that event. Clearly these other industries are not always okay with second hand use of their products.
Like I already said in my post though, how much money Blockbuster or whoever is making from the deal isn't the point. The point is what exactly does a publisher equate to a lost sale like they do with piracy?
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thelovebat: Like I already said in my post though, how much money Blockbuster or whoever is making from the deal isn't the point. The point is what exactly does a publisher equate to a lost sale like they do with piracy?
Well, that's a good question. I haven't owned a console in a long time and thus have not rented games in many years: How does renting games that have a multiplayer component work? Do the console versions of games require special codes or accounts to access the multiplayer the same way the PC versions do? That could be an indication of how they feel about it. Also, haven't there been a lot of talks in the last couple of years about how the next generation consoles were supposed to have ways of preventing second hand sales? I haven't followed it for a while, but I remember there was talk about that.

I think part of the issue is that these companies are bound by laws pertaining to physical goods (first sale doctrine) that don't apply to digital goods. And many of these old practices are dying out. Movie and game rental brick and mortar stores have largely been eliminated. I'm not sure how second-hand sales stores are doing overall. I think these places will always exist, but in smaller quantities. They will exist for people who enjoy collecting or finding games to play for older systems, but I do believe that we will stop seeing new games at these establishments.

In any case, surely the publisher considers it as lost revenue, but I'm not sure they have a legal way of preventing it due to consumer laws, which is why they've been adding things like the multiplayer passes and what not in order to try and recover some of that lost revenue.
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keeveek: Because it's a freaking busywork that isn't worth for that few extra dollars.
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JCD-Bionicman: Eh? Did you read what I wrote? If someone donated ME a dollar I probably wouldn't bother cashing it in either, but being corporations they have people managing finances for them, so they do whatever "busywork" they're paid to do, regardless about how they feel about it. Understand now?
Most dev shops probably don't have "people" that do it for them, in small companies it's simply an additional role that someone fills in addition to their other duties. There are probably big dev studios that don't work like this but I bet the majority of studios count under 30 employees total.
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Qwertyman: *snip*
OK..
1) EULAs are bullshit and not even really legally binding, and I've stated already it's not the legality that matters to me.
2) Piracy is not THEFT, it's COPYRIGHT VIOLATION.
3) Likening the used book industry to theft, or even copyright violation, is idiotic.
If one assumes that when one purchases an item, such as a book, that they own that copy of the book.. they are allowed to do as they please with that copy of the book, in so long as they do not produce additional copies of said book for distribution.

The reason the used game industry is more of a grey area is the fact that game companies have amended the EULA (.. see point 1) to say "You don't own this, you're just borrowing it from us and you can't pass it on to your friends" (paraphrased of course). If we disregard the EULA (.. see above), then we have to assume that video games fall under the same form of copyright protection that any other media does.

Piracy, on the other hand.. is, as stated above, not theft. It is the distribution of unauthorized copies of a piece of media by an individual who does not have the legal right to distribute said media. They really can't pin much on a downloader/end user of pirated materials, it's the uploader/distributor who is really breaking the law (based off of copyright violation and not the EULA).
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Qwertyman: *snip*
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Zolgar: OK..
1) EULAs are bullshit and not even really legally binding, and I've stated already it's not the legality that matters to me.
2) Piracy is not THEFT, it's COPYRIGHT VIOLATION.
3) Likening the used book industry to theft, or even copyright violation, is idiotic.
If one assumes that when one purchases an item, such as a book, that they own that copy of the book.. they are allowed to do as they please with that copy of the book, in so long as they do not produce additional copies of said book for distribution.

The reason the used game industry is more of a grey area is the fact that game companies have amended the EULA (.. see point 1) to say "You don't own this, you're just borrowing it from us and you can't pass it on to your friends" (paraphrased of course). If we disregard the EULA (.. see above), then we have to assume that video games fall under the same form of copyright protection that any other media does.

Piracy, on the other hand.. is, as stated above, not theft. It is the distribution of unauthorized copies of a piece of media by an individual who does not have the legal right to distribute said media. They really can't pin much on a downloader/end user of pirated materials, it's the uploader/distributor who is really breaking the law (based off of copyright violation and not the EULA).
No EULA on console games, the main medium for used game sales, can prevent used game sales, see the right of first sale.
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Zolgar: snip
You're an incredibly dense individual. And your last bit at the end is incorrect - it is technically illegal to own or use pirated materials.

Anyways, let me ask you a question. Let's keep using the book example here for a moment. Since legalities aren't important to you, ignore the legality of these situations:

Situation A) Let's say your friend owns a book and he gives it to you when he's finished. You now have access to the book for free. Your friend didn't create any new copies of the book, he gave you his copy. End result: Two people experience the story for the price of one admission.

Situation B) This time, he makes a copy of the book. He gives you the copy when he is done with it, and he stores the original copy on a shelf. It will never be redistributed or sold; it will simply sit on his shelf, and let's assume that he will most likely will never read it again. End result: Two people experience the story for the price of one admission.

Now keep in mind I said ignore the legal aspects of this situation. Consider earlier that you said this about software piracy: "As a rule, I don't pirate. First because I find it wrong, fuck legality, it's just plain wrong.."

Now consider these examples in the context of a video game. Your friend has a video game, and gives you his copy when he's done. Or, your friend makes a copy of his game, and gives you the copy. Either way, the publisher gets paid once, and two people play the game.

How is this any different from the book example? Keep in mind that we're ignoring legalities here based on your own statement, which I will quote again: "...fuck legality, it's just plain wrong.."

So, giving away a writer's story for free is not wrong, but playing a game for free, is? Edit: Even if you sell it instead of giving it away, it's the same as giving it away for free in the publishers eyes since they don't see a dime of the resale. Morally speaking, you're probably on more solid ground if you give it away rather than selling someone's work.
Post edited January 28, 2013 by Qwertyman
Comparing media to tools always works out so well, let me tell ya.

Compensate creators for the media/art you enjoy. The end.
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Zolgar: snip
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Qwertyman: You're an incredibly dense individual. And your last bit at the end is incorrect - it is technically illegal to own or use pirated materials.

Anyways, let me ask you a question. Let's keep using the book example here for a moment. Since legalities aren't important to you, ignore the legality of these situations:

Situation A) Let's say your friend owns a book and he gives it to you when he's finished. You now have access to the book for free. Your friend didn't create any new copies of the book, he gave you his copy. End result: Two people experience the story for the price of one admission.

Situation B) This time, he makes a copy of the book. He gives you the copy when he is done with it, and he stores the original copy on a shelf. It will never be redistributed or sold; it will simply sit on his shelf, and let's assume that he will most likely will never read it again. End result: Two people experience the story for the price of one admission.

Now keep in mind I said ignore the legal aspects of this situation. Consider earlier that you said this about software piracy: "As a rule, I don't pirate. First because I find it wrong, fuck legality, it's just plain wrong.."

Now consider these examples in the context of a video game. Your friend has a video game, and gives you his copy when he's done. Or, your friend makes a copy of his game, and gives you the copy. Either way, the publisher gets paid once, and two people play the game.

How is this any different from the book example? Keep in mind that we're ignoring legalities here based on your own statement, which I will quote again: "...fuck legality, it's just plain wrong.."

So, giving away a writer's story for free is not wrong, but playing a game for free, is? Edit: Even if you sell it instead of giving it away, it's the same as giving it away for free in the publishers eyes since they don't see a dime of the resale. Morally speaking, you're probably on more solid ground if you give it away rather than selling someone's work.
Simply put, if one produces a copy of media, it gives them the option to continue to enjoy the media.
If they remove the copy from their possession, so too do they remove the option to continue to enjoy it.
If they produce a million copies to distribute willy nilly, they're not only keeping the option to continue enjoying it themselves, but giving the option to enjoy it freely to practically everyone.

That is the essence of piracy.

Using your twisted logic:
Every time you buy a used car, you're stealing that car, because the manufacturer didn't see a dime of money from the 2nd person to own that car.
Thrift stores need to just be shut down and everyone who shops at them arrested.
Libraries and video stores need to be tried for theft and copyright violations.

Stop and THINK about the implications of your "used market is stealing" comments.
If you want to pirate shit, GO RIGHT AHEAD. If you want to use the twisted logic that "Well, pirating it is no different from buying it second hand", then go right ahead.

And also, yes, I know that owning/using pirated materials is illegal, but it's one that's not worth the courts time to try and enforce. The large-scale redistribution is where it's worth their time and effort to try and fight it.
Like I said, 20 years ago.. piracy existed still, people would pass around copies of music and movies, people would copy movies from the rental place, record music off the radio, etc. it was just as illegal then as it is now.. but back then, in order to redistribute on a scale that actually made a blip on the radar of the companies you had to have a large scale operation going.
In this day and age though, every 'seeder' on a Torent sight has a large enough scale distribution to be a blip.