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General discussion (archive)People who support DRM(217 posts)(217 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 24, 2012
*Sigh* Let me ask you something, have you ever argued with someone who was so wrong, but worded their argument to not only make themselves look right but to make you look like an idiot and get laughed at.

This is what I experienced earlier today. I go to an academy to learn 3D art and game development and one of my fellow students who is much older and more educated then me seems to be a through supporter of DRM and also has a habit of making me look like an idiot thus causing others to laugh at me.

Anyway, no matter what data I show him or what argument I present to him I just can’t get him to see that DRM is ruining the games industry.

Not only is he in favor of DRM but also says that DRM-free is more torrented then DRM protected software.

To give you an example, I went and checked to see how many people were torrenting the gog version of Divinity 2 version Doom 3 BFG edition.


You’d expect Divinity 2 to have the highest number.

Well less then ten people were trying to torrent a game they’d probably get around to buying anyway while 179 people were trying to torrent Doom 3 BFG edition.

I think this is substantial evidence that DRM causes more piracy that it solves, and when I told him this he suggested that it was because Doom 3 was more popular and no one was interested in Divinity 2.

Although I don’t know the sales stats I find that very hard to believe.

Sorry for the long wall of text, anyway can any of you guys help me present a better argument for the befits of DRM free software?

Also if you're wandering why I bother with this, well, lets just say that he's very persistent.

(If I get a brain aneurism as a result of auguring with this man can hold him responsible?)
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Magmarock
Posted October 24, 2012
Ask him to evaluate how well DRM worked out for the music industry.
Posted October 24, 2012
You're preaching to the converted and quoting facts that are basically well established to those of us that have our eyes open, to be honest.

The most pirated games have always been those with DRM since DRM really became a topic in 2008. Spore was the most pirated game in that year, Crysis 2 and Modern Warfare 3 were the most pirated last year, Mass Effect 3 is in the running for this year.

Ironically, the pirate copies of The Witcher 2 doing the rounds were the version that had the SecuROM copy protection attached it with a crack enclosed.

The amount of times a game is pirated is indeed relative to its popularity. DRM has practically no effect on piracy. While it may slightly reduce zero-day and day-one piracy, it drags it out over a longer period of time as pirates wait for cracks.

What DRM does do is to foster a sense of ill will among a customer base, so even if a customer doesn't pirate a title, they will be less likely to buy it, which pretty much amounts to the same thing as pirating it in economic terms.

And the expenditure required to implement DRM (design and coding, licensing of third-party technologies, server maintenance) is significant, probably well beyond the derived benefits.
Posted October 24, 2012
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jamyskis: The most pirated games have always been those with DRM since DRM really became a topic in 2008. Spore was the most pirated game in that year
I remember reading on various forums and places around the net how some people were saying that they Pirated that game without even playing it or Kept seeding the Spore torrents 24/7 JUST to spite EA
Posted October 24, 2012
People in the industry tend to think it's okay because from their perspective they should control what's theirs. They ignore or don't understand consumer rights to a purchase, license or not, and how games become a part of social culture.

Which is why the industry should not set the rules.
Posted October 24, 2012
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Magmarock: says that DRM-free is more pirated then DRM protected software.
Citation needed.

Why should you bother with stats and data to counterargue him when he doesn't even have any data to back his own theory?
Post edited October 24, 2012 by retsuseiba
Posted October 24, 2012
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Roman5: I remember reading on various forums and places around the net how some people were saying that they Pirated that game without even playing it or Kept seeding the Spore torrents 24/7 JUST to spite EA
Yeah, I remember that. In fact, the justification of many pirates used today is the DRM, although they can't quite explain why they can't just simply not play the game.

One of the greatest arguments against DRM is that it gives cracking groups a legitimate raison d'être.
Posted October 24, 2012
You could just punch him in the face. It won't help your argument, but you'll feel better.
Posted October 24, 2012
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Roman5: I remember reading on various forums and places around the net how some people were saying that they Pirated that game without even playing it or Kept seeding the Spore torrents 24/7 JUST to spite EA
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jamyskis: Yeah, I remember that. In fact, the justification of many pirates used today is the DRM, although they can't quite explain why they can't just simply not play the game.

One of the greatest arguments against DRM is that it gives cracking groups a legitimate raison d'être.
Reminds me of the time when Sony was saying how the PS3 is "Unhackable", saying stuff like this is basically saying to hackers "Here's a challenge for you, solve it" and they always do
Posted October 24, 2012
Show him some reports about pirates buying more games/music/movies than people who don't pirate.

Tell him that The Witcher 2 GOG was torrented right after the release. but it was retail copy with DRM on, and the drm-free copy from GOG wasn't torrented (devs told us about this).

And then tell him that he should check how music industry changed when they dropped drm.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by SLP2000
Posted October 24, 2012
I support watermarking as it hinders users who would misuse their copy (they have to worry about people they are giving a copy to leaking it on the internet or getting arrested with a copy), but leaves other users unscathed.

For example, I don't have a problem with my name appearing on pdf documents I purchase (I actually think it's cool) though I no longer give them my name with an accent, because they tend to screw the unicode part up (what do you expect from Americans?).

That's about it.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Magnitus
Posted October 24, 2012
Facepalm at this whole thread.
Posted October 24, 2012
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jamyskis: You're preaching to the converted and quoting facts that are basically well established to those of us that have our eyes open, to be honest.

The most pirated games have always been those with DRM since DRM really became a topic in 2008. Spore was the most pirated game in that year, Crysis 2 and Modern Warfare 3 were the most pirated last year, Mass Effect 3 is in the running for this year.

Ironically, the pirate copies of The Witcher 2 doing the rounds were the version that had the SecuROM copy protection attached it with a crack enclosed.

The amount of times a game is pirated is indeed relative to its popularity. DRM has practically no effect on piracy. While it may slightly reduce zero-day and day-one piracy, it drags it out over a longer period of time as pirates wait for cracks.

What DRM does do is to foster a sense of ill will among a customer base, so even if a customer doesn't pirate a title, they will be less likely to buy it, which pretty much amounts to the same thing as pirating it in economic terms.

And the expenditure required to implement DRM (design and coding, licensing of third-party technologies, server maintenance) is significant, probably well beyond the derived benefits.
This.

And FYI, Doom 3 was and is probably a rather popular game. Just assuming those numbers the OP pulled had anything to do with DRM is ridiculous, people pirate games because they want to play for free and they pick the game that interests them, not to avoid DRM or any other principle.

Anyway, why are you bothering trying to convince him? He obviously has his opinion on the matter and won't change it regardless of any argument or how its presented to him.

About DRM itself. It's like this, from a consumer perspective I see it is is an inconvenience depending on the situation (e.g always online is a deal breaker if you don't have a fast internet connection or don't accept limited installations because you travel a lot and use a laptop) as a worse case scenario, that's why I prefer DRM-free as I know that I'll face a situation that it will become an inconvenience, sooner or later.

From a business perspective, I would certainly use DRM on my product as long as it's cost-effective e.g probably avoid any kind of always online but using some kind of protection related to a CD-key check. You have to do something to protect your intellectual property.
Posted October 24, 2012
DRM pointless to stop piracy? Yes

DRM aimed to stop piracy? No

DRM effectively killed second hand sales on pc games? Yes

DRM "killing the gaming industry" ? No

Now, you can call it what you want. But effectively DD killed of the second hand with what I call "account based DRM". Like even GOG uses. It effectively ties a game license to one person. It's not DRM on games, but it is still "DRMish" (And it is actually only the application of the law, not a program or really anything that lies in the hands of the publishers). Call it a duck for what I care, but that is how it works. And also GOG is using and profiteering from it.

Is that bad? Not in my opinion. As I rather give 5$ to the dev/pub than 15$ to some bloke on ebay.

PC gaming is having its second spring. Gaming in general has never been more diverse, you can hardly think of any game or genre where at least an indie of some kind is frequently released. If there wouldn't be this "DRM" on digital items, indie devs couldn't survive. Especially single player only games like point & clicks would vanish like it was '99 again, as people would just play them and sell them.

Additionally, prices are dropping like never before. Digital only released games usually are significantly cheaper than comparable titles that also see a retail release. (While this is more a licensing issue than a DRM issue, this still is part of the greater change that is happening). Not to mention that it is now profitable for a developer/publisher to sell a game with high discounts, as that copy will stay forever with that person. There is no risk for the developer to loose another buyer with this.

While intrusive disc protection certainly was one of the reasons people went to digital distribution (one of the reasons for me) the greater concept of "DRM" or duck whatever you want to call it works and is something incredible positive for gaming as a whole.

Now, while it is cool to scream "DRM free" on the top of the lungs. It would help to actually take the bigger picture into account.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by SimonG
Posted October 24, 2012
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SimonG: Is that bad? Not in my opinion. As I rather give 5$ to the dev/pub than 15$ to some bloke on ebay.
Me too. As it is now the competition alone between DD companies is enough to drive prices down really quickly so the point of second hand sales is null, at least that's how I see it.

and the fact that the account is required isn't an issue, I've never heard of anyone saying that.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)People who support DRM(217 posts)(217 posts)
(217 posts)