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General discussion (archive)People living in Germany, please click here...(60 posts)(60 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 20, 2011
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macuahuitlgog: Customs has the authority to seize your games even though buying them isn't illegal?
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cjrgreen: Buying and importing have different rules. The intent of the rules for buying indizierte games is that you must buy them "under the table" from a domestic seller at his place of business; they cannot be imported.

Customs can seize any game that's indiziert or beschlagnahmt.

The way I read it, if it's indiziert, you may be required to prove you are of age; if it's beschlagnahmt, Customs will refer your case to the state's attorney.

http://www.zoll.de/b0_zoll_und_steuern/d0_verbote_und_beschraenkungen/a0_oeffentliche_ordnung/g0_jugendgefaehrdende_medien/index.html
Ok, thank you cjrgreen and everyone else for your responses. But cjrgreen, I have one more question, if you don't mind? If you buy a banned game from a digital store and download it or someone gifts you a banned Steam game from U.S.A., can you get in trouble?
Posted July 20, 2011
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GameRager: This is one of those few times where I say screw the law.
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macuahuitlgog: Yeah, Germany is HELL for gamers...
Hey, at least it's not Australia.

Last I heard, the AG for New South Wales was going to sabotage the R18+ rating by abstaining, and the attorneys general were going to do the Protestant thing and send the R18+ rating back for more study, until 2012 at least.
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cjrgreen: Buying and importing have different rules. The intent of the rules for buying indizierte games is that you must buy them "under the table" from a domestic seller at his place of business; they cannot be imported.

Customs can seize any game that's indiziert or beschlagnahmt.

The way I read it, if it's indiziert, you may be required to prove you are of age; if it's beschlagnahmt, Customs will refer your case to the state's attorney.

http://www.zoll.de/b0_zoll_und_steuern/d0_verbote_und_beschraenkungen/a0_oeffentliche_ordnung/g0_jugendgefaehrdende_medien/index.html
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macuahuitlgog: Ok, thank you cjrgreen and everyone else for your responses. But cjrgreen, I have one more question, if you don't mind? If you buy a banned game from a digital store and download it or someone gifts you a banned Steam game from U.S.A., can you get in trouble?
Theoretically, I suppose so. In practice, they're not policing the Internet. So if you DL'd for your own use and didn't hand out copies to anybody else, they wouldn't take notice.
Post edited July 20, 2011 by cjrgreen
Posted July 20, 2011
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macuahuitlgog: Yeah, Germany is HELL for gamers...
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cjrgreen: Hey, at least it's not Australia.

Last I heard, the AG for New South Wales was going to sabotage the R18+ rating by abstaining, and the attorneys general were going to do the Protestant thing and send the R18+ rating back for more study, until 2012 at least.
If Australia is worse than Germany then Australia is just a deeper darker level of hell for gamers. It's like where you would go after beating the boss of act V in Diablo 2 - Lord Of Destruction if Blizzard created a 2nd expansion for the game. I'm sure Australia has a lot of nice things to offer people living there but only being able to buy Peggle Extreme, Sims 3 and Lego Star Wars? No, thank you.
Post edited July 20, 2011 by macuahuitlgog
Posted July 20, 2011
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macuahuitlgog: Yeah, Germany is HELL for gamers...
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cjrgreen: Hey, at least it's not Australia.

Last I heard, the AG for New South Wales was going to sabotage the R18+ rating by abstaining, and the attorneys general were going to do the Protestant thing and send the R18+ rating back for more study, until 2012 at least.
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macuahuitlgog: Ok, thank you cjrgreen and everyone else for your responses. But cjrgreen, I have one more question, if you don't mind? If you buy a banned game from a digital store and download it or someone gifts you a banned Steam game from U.S.A., can you get in trouble?
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cjrgreen: Theoretically, I suppose so. In practice, they're not policing the Internet. So if you DL'd for your own use and didn't hand out copies to anybody else, they wouldn't take notice.
Great, so if there is a banned game, I want, someone gifts it to me through Steam from the U.S.A., then I'm a criminal. Can I buy indexed games from a digital store and download it without getting in trouble? Can someone gift me an indexed game from U.S.A., without me getting in trouble?
Post edited July 20, 2011 by macuahuitlgog
Posted July 20, 2011
Op don't worry about the law....screw them. Someone has to stand up or nothing will change. Not syaing you should put yourself in the spotlight or in trouble but just saying you gotta fight this crap even if you do it in secret. :)
Posted July 20, 2011
as explained before, german law isnt as harsh as people think

"beschlagnahmte" games:
those are where the law is very strict, you may own them, but no distribution whatsoever is allowed
those games are only games where nazis are glorified or nazis are referenced too directly by the use of symbols, or very very few games that are really brutal, like manhunt for example, the list is very short and consists of like 10 games or so, so yeah there are games banned in germany, but a handfull of banned games doesnt mean germany is hell for gamers

"indizierte" games:
no problem at all, you may own them, you may sell them, you may buy them, play them, do whatever you want, all that is restcricted is that you may not advertise them without making sure only people 18 years or older are affected, and you may not distribute those games to people under the age of 18, you are 18, you have no problem

"indizierte" games tend to be censored in germany because of the customers and the publishers, the law doesnt have to do anything with it, publishers censor those games completely voluntarely because of two factors:

1: customers dont care
advertising isnt allowed for "indizierte" games, so customers would need to inform themselves about what they call their hobby, if they would care they would be informed without saying
you are a gaming fan, tell me, without taking advertisiments into consideration, since when do you know deus ex human revolution is coming out even when you are not interested in buying it?
see, you are like 1% of the customers, most customers dont buy because they are a fan of gaming, they just buy because they have to, like robots, so publishers censor the games because customers dont care about anything thats not advertised, a good zombie game is coming out? they dont care! a cheap licence cash in thats not worth buying is coming out? they buy it because of heavy advertisement, customers dont care, so publishers censor the games so they can order the customers to buy games

2. publishers dont care (except for money)
that example can be better explained with movies, but you will understand how its fitting for games too, so it goes like this:
imagine there is a big action movie coming out, like stallone does lots of brutal kills, like 20 kills in a minute or whatever, great movie right?
well how about that, we take everything out of the movie that makes the movie great, so we can sell it to an audience that was never thought of when the movie was made? so the movie is stripped of all the great action because without the brutal kills you can sell a killer film to younger people that wont have fun watching it and where never the intended audience

3. bonus reason: publishers REALLY care for money
so lets say there is a nice kids movie, its for kids 12 years or older, no problem, right?
you forgot the publishers will to earn money, since kids dont really understand when a movie makes no sense because stuff is missing, they just censor it until it is suitable for kids 6 years or older

i think the third bonus reason shows that the problem isnt the law, if something is suitable for people 18 years or above it will be censored so its for 16 or above, if its 16 or above publishers censor it to sell it to kids 12 or above, if its 12 or above, why not censore it so it is also suitable for kids of 6 or above - and the law has nothing to do with it

ok to end this long post, lets go back to "indizierte" games a last time, i already said that because of violence "beschalgnahmte" games are only like 10 or some more, so again "indizierte" games:
two possibilities:

1. you are one of those robot customers that dont care, for you the publishers censor the games because you fail to be informed about what you call your hobby, since you dont care enough to be informed about your hobby you dont care when you play a censored game, chances are that you wont even notice, since you dont care there is no problem

2. you are an informed customer, but since thats the case and you should be above 18 to care anyway, you will have no problem to find the uncensored version, amazon.uk only has about two days delivery time to germany and is most of the time even cheaper then german shops, nobody breaks a law, you got your uncensored game, and chances are you saved some money
Posted July 21, 2011
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macuahuitlgog: is that the future of Germany?
Wiki link:
'Ursula von der Leyen announced wanting to fight more content of the internet, for example insults. The right of free speech should be kept 'in the right dimension', according to her.'

Imagine the fun of banning web pages because they contain insults.
Post edited July 21, 2011 by Fujek
Posted July 21, 2011
Actually I have sympathy for the german regulation. It's different from other countries, the consensus among people is that heavy violence is seen as more abominable as sex, in other countries it's the other way around. The index is just to keep games away from under age folks. It's not working fully, but without it it would be even worse. The other category of actually forbidden to sell games, well, one reason can be excessive use of Nazi symbolism or excessive meaningless killing of civilians, we still have problems with it. ;)

Of course there is an economical aspect, since the developers have to provide special versions for some markets, but then that is the price for having our own priorities which I think is good. Some developers even are angry when they not make it on the index, because they think that their game becomes more attractive to the adult customer base with such a 'label'. I once red about a pornographic card game - computer game which didn't make it on the index because it was too light until some violence was added deliberately in the last moment.
Post edited July 21, 2011 by Trilarion
Posted January 26, 2012
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karacho: 2. you are an informed customer, but since thats the case and you should be above 18 to care anyway, you will have no problem to find the uncensored version, amazon.uk only has about two days delivery time to germany and is most of the time even cheaper then german shops, nobody breaks a law, you got your uncensored game, and chances are you saved some money
But you are not legally allowed to order indexed games from stores in other countries and 90% of the games from other countries is indexed... I read that you can only buy indexed games from stores in Germany, that they can't be imported. But if that is true, how do the stores in Germany get their hands on indexed games without breaking a law... Yep, Germany is a hell for gamers...
Posted January 26, 2012
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Fujek: Wiki link:
'Ursula von der Leyen announced wanting to fight more content of the internet, for example insults. The right of free speech should be kept 'in the right dimension', according to her.'

Imagine the fun of banning web pages because they contain insults.
that woman has come off like a would-be dictator one too many times. it amazes me how such a person can remain in a top political position for so long, especially in a state with the history of Germany, with dictators and totalitarianism and all...

that kind of mindset sounds a lot more dangerous than any violent game i've ever played. i wonder why that isn't banned...
Post edited January 26, 2012 by Fred_DM
Posted January 26, 2012
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GameRager: This is one of those few times where I say screw the law.
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macuahuitlgog: Yeah, Germany is HELL for gamers...
I heard Greek is worse.......
They have a law banning all electronic games in public places. In one case, an internet cafe owner was sent to court because he allowed the customers to play online chess......Don't know how it turned out at the end though......
Posted January 26, 2012
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karacho: 2. you are an informed customer, but since thats the case and you should be above 18 to care anyway, you will have no problem to find the uncensored version, amazon.uk only has about two days delivery time to germany and is most of the time even cheaper then german shops, nobody breaks a law, you got your uncensored game, and chances are you saved some money
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macuahuitlgog: But you are not legally allowed to order indexed games from stores in other countries and 90% of the games from other countries is indexed... I read that you can only buy indexed games from stores in Germany, that they can't be imported. But if that is true, how do the stores in Germany get their hands on indexed games without breaking a law... Yep, Germany is a hell for gamers...
What? I think you are confusing indexed games with banned games.... Importing games is no problem what so ever. And the majority of foreign games are "indexed" (not to be sold to minors, actually) because they were never checked by the german classifiaction board.

And the number of cencored games is at an all time low. There was a very interesting article about 2011 here (http://www.schnittberichte.com/index.php) which I'm unable to find, atm.
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Fred_DM: that woman has come off like a would-be dictator one too many times. it amazes me how such a person can remain in a top political position for so long, especially in a state with the history of Germany, with dictators and totalitarianism and all...

that kind of mindset sounds a lot more dangerous than any violent game i've ever played. i wonder why that isn't banned...
She is way more tame than you think. And she has no actual power or support for those reforms. This is typical politician lingo. There has been worse and there will be worse. They can play "let's censor the internet" as long as they want, but without a substantial reform of the constitution this just wont happen.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by SimonG
Posted January 26, 2012
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macuahuitlgog: But you are not legally allowed to order indexed games from stores in other countries and 90% of the games from other countries is indexed... I read that you can only buy indexed games from stores in Germany, that they can't be imported. But if that is true, how do the stores in Germany get their hands on indexed games without breaking a law... Yep, Germany is a hell for gamers...
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SimonG: What? I think you are confusing indexed games with banned games.... Importing games is no problem what so ever. And the majority of foreign games are "indexed" (not to be sold to minors, actually) because they were never checked by the german classifiaction board.

And the number of cencored games is at an all time low. There was a very interesting article about 2011 here (http://www.schnittberichte.com/index.php) which I'm unable to find, atm.
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Fred_DM: that woman has come off like a would-be dictator one too many times. it amazes me how such a person can remain in a top political position for so long, especially in a state with the history of Germany, with dictators and totalitarianism and all...

that kind of mindset sounds a lot more dangerous than any violent game i've ever played. i wonder why that isn't banned...
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SimonG: She is way more tame than you think. And she has no actual power or support for those reforms. This is typical politician lingo. There has been worse and there will be worse. They can play "let's censor the internet" as long as they want, but without a substantial reform of the constitution this just wont happen.
I'm not confusing indexed games with banned games. I've read from several places that you can get in trouble for importing indexed games. Why do you say it is no problem what so ever? Have you ever ordered an indexed game from amazon.co.uk?
Posted January 26, 2012
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PandaLiang: I heard Greek is worse.......
They have a law banning all electronic games in public places. In one case, an internet cafe owner was sent to court because he allowed the customers to play online chess......Don't know how it turned out at the end though......
This law passed in the parliament in the summer of... 2004 or something, can't remember for sure but no police officer ever applied it to civilians. Only a few shady "online gaming" businesses were sent to court and the law was scrapped a few months later because it was 1) absurd for the citizens, and 2) non-profitable for shady business owners who were friends/relatives/voters/whatever of politicians. The problem was that the law was aiming to these exact shady business owners ("neighborhood casinos" as their businesses were called) but made a poor definition of the betting machines as "electronic , video games", so obviously it was a matter of recognizing what's what.

There was a funny meme going around at the time with a European family sunbathing in an island while the son was playing Pokemon in his Game Boy, and suddenly a cop appeared and smacked the boy in the face with his club for breaking the law. Obviously that never happened, but it went to show the unfairness, the non-applicability to citizens and the back-stepping of the Greek laws, compared to the rest of Europe. Other than that, no banning of games in Greece whatsoever.
Posted January 26, 2012
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macuahuitlgog: I'm not confusing indexed games with banned games. I've read from several places that you can get in trouble for importing indexed games. Why do you say it is no problem what so ever? Have you ever ordered an indexed game from amazon.co.uk?
Well, plenty on Amazon.co.uk. You have to make a proof of age in most places, like here. Amazon sometimes requires you to present your ID to the transportations guy.

The only legal cirumstances considering indexed games is youth protection. You will get into trouble selling indexed games to minors. But there is absolutely nothing illegal about selling indexed games to minors. Even Media Markt and Saturn often have extra sections for "ab 18" games, movies, etc.

You can't advertise indexed games, that is why most of them fly under the radar and publishers avoid indexing an thus censor their games.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)People living in Germany, please click here...(60 posts)(60 posts)
(60 posts)