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orcishgamer: That's only sort of true, you can buy the first Player's Handbook and play with just that if you want, it's completely playable and there's no reason a group cannot play it.

If you like to hop groups or something, yeah, you may want to keep up with things, but it's not totally necessary.
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Orryyrro: So, basically they release rule updates (I'm assuming for balance reasons?) to people with a subscription but you can play just fine without them. What are other complaints people have?
Well, a common complaint is that it's "WOW-ified", I don't actually know if people mean any one specific thing by this, but it's sort of a mantra. AD&D has always had powers for many classes outside the obvious ones (like Wizard) so if people claim it's "powers with cooldowns" they are woefully ignorant of AD&D. At any rate, they've made rules more consistent, now a Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard will use powers in a consistent way (much like they simplified high/low confusion by reworking so high was always good, instead of sometimes good and sometimes bad). They got rid of THAC0 so it's easier to figure out if you hit your target (you need a 17 or higher, did ya roll it?). Basically they are continually evolving out the clunky parts while refining it. Not all of this happened between 3.5 and 4, I'm just poiting out some evolutions.

Now, clearly some nitpicks are fair and at times AD&D has been changed to address some of said nitpicks. Mostly when I see someone who "hates" 4ed and thinks it's like WOW, if I dig deep enough it's just someone who really, really loves 3.5, can't see any of it's glaring issues and never wants their game to change. That's fine, but it's not a valid criticism, it's just their preference for a different edition.
Post edited August 10, 2011 by orcishgamer
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VetMichael: I've played all editions of D&D and find the latest one...lacking. 4th ed is kind of like a table top WOW - not that it isn't fun, but it just loses something that made D&D great....I think it might be the wonky math :)

Also played 7th Sea - which is SOOOO fun - and am starting up on Rogue Trader (Warhammer 40k universe) which is NUTS. I run a homebrew 3.5 Pathfinder game occasionally. I think my group's problem is our schedule; we run a game then someone gets tired of running and wants to start playing so we switch universes (and often systems) and then lather, rinse and repeat.
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MrWilli: I've heard of the 7th sea. Isn't a pirate rpg where you can't die?

Also does anyone know of a good nanotech rpg besides shadowrun?
Not only can you NOT die - well, it is really difficult - you aren't supposed to kill named bad guys (brutes are okay...they die in droves :) )
It's kind of pirates, kind of 3 musketeers...magic and monsters exist but they are not super prevalent as in D&D. Plus, you get extra experience for role playing your character: the more outrageous, daring, swashbuckling kind of hero you are, the more experience.
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Orryyrro: So, basically they release rule updates (I'm assuming for balance reasons?) to people with a subscription but you can play just fine without them. What are other complaints people have?
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orcishgamer: Well, a common complaint is that it's "WOW-ified", I don't actually know if people mean any one specific thing by this, but it's sort of a mantra. AD&D has always had powers for many classes outside the obvious ones (like Wizard) so if people claim it's "powers with cooldowns" they are woefully ignorant of AD&D. At any rate, they've made rules more consistent, now a Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard will use powers in a consistent way (much like they simplified high/low confusion by reworking so high was always good, instead of sometimes good and sometimes bad). They got rid of THAC0 so it's easier to figure out if you hit your target (you need a 17 or higher, did ya roll it?). Basically they are continually evolving out the clunky parts while refining it. Not all of this happened between 3.5 and 4, I'm just poiting out some evolutions.

Now, clearly some nitpicks are fair and at times AD&D has been changed to address some of said nitpicks. Mostly when I see someone who "hates" 4ed and thinks it's like WOW, if I dig deep enough it's just someone who really, really loves 3.5, can't see any of it's glaring issues and never wants their game to change. That's fine, but it's not a valid criticism, it's just their preference for a different edition.
Another question, what would be a good intro to 4th edition? Would it be the D&D Essentials red box that they advertise as such? Or would there be a better product?
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orcishgamer: Well, a common complaint is that it's "WOW-ified", I don't actually know if people mean any one specific thing by this, but it's sort of a mantra. AD&D has always had powers for many classes outside the obvious ones (like Wizard) so if people claim it's "powers with cooldowns" they are woefully ignorant of AD&D. At any rate, they've made rules more consistent, now a Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard will use powers in a consistent way (much like they simplified high/low confusion by reworking so high was always good, instead of sometimes good and sometimes bad). They got rid of THAC0 so it's easier to figure out if you hit your target (you need a 17 or higher, did ya roll it?). Basically they are continually evolving out the clunky parts while refining it. Not all of this happened between 3.5 and 4, I'm just poiting out some evolutions.

Now, clearly some nitpicks are fair and at times AD&D has been changed to address some of said nitpicks. Mostly when I see someone who "hates" 4ed and thinks it's like WOW, if I dig deep enough it's just someone who really, really loves 3.5, can't see any of it's glaring issues and never wants their game to change. That's fine, but it's not a valid criticism, it's just their preference for a different edition.
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Orryyrro: Another question, what would be a good intro to 4th edition? Would it be the D&D Essentials red box that they advertise as such? Or would there be a better product?
How much cash do you have? If the price of the red box is not too onerous, get it, it's not half bad as an introduction. You could try watching the Penny Arcade video sessions (they have PAX sessions and various other ones) to see where it can go, but it may be confusing.

There's a Player's Handbook (part 1), which will get you going in the main game. You can save money on Amazon.com or support your local game store, they literally close down at the drop of a hat, so if you like a place to play and they're providing it, support them. You're red box character should come right across or you can reroll. At any rate, there's no lack of variety in the first handbook, you should find something fun to play, if a group you're try playing with demands min-maxing then they're probably not that fun or running a really difficult campaign (or both).

All in all, Wizard's has provided some good tools this time, there's also a crap ton of free online tools out there (I can PM you some bookmarks tomorrow or something), if you can't afford a mini, a cardboard chit will do, can't afford the red box? Just buy the Player's Handbook (under 20 bucks). It's role playing so you can spend as much time writing psych profiles and whatever else you'd like to flesh out your character, he/she's not all stats (as sadly is more the case with most CRPGs), some DMs may let you take a small extra bonus in exchange for a voluntary role playing handicap, just avoid ones too annoying to the other players.

Sometimes the DM's guide is a bit enlightening even if you're not going to DM, and the Monster Manual helps know basic critters (who really do run the gamut of odd at times), if you want you can save some bucks by buying the 3 pack, it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Core-Rulebook-Gift/dp/0786950633/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313036309&sr=1-4

though I think I recall paying less for it (and indeed at that price the individual books may be cheaper).

Really the amount of stuff that will help you along the way to AD&D fun is literally staggering. You could read for hours a day, but in the end, we used to drink Mountain Dew, now it's beer, but it's really all about fun. Do whatever leads to that. If no one is joining you locally, play with an online group.
Post edited August 11, 2011 by orcishgamer
4e:
Actually, I have very little experience with the hobby and even less with 4th edition D&D, but I can guess where the WoW comparisons come from. The greater availability of class powers (at-will/encounter) can be seen as emulating varied cool-down timers. Universal self-healing could be viewed as similar to a regenerating health bar. The near removal of the previous editions multi-class system, greater emphasis on character level over class split and stats, and the DPS/Tank/Control/Support language probably isn’t helping matters either.

The backlash against healing surges seems a bit overblown, but I’m not exactly a fan of the concept. Other things such as , [url=http://thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/playtesting-4th.html#non-combat]rituals, greater PC/NPC divide, an even clunkier alignment system, and an even greater reliance on grid based tokens/miniatures tend to push me away. Aside from rolling a die for DC rather than saves, I didn’t see much that Pathfinder isn’t doing better for a lower price.

Some of this is personal preference and I could have easily gotten the wrong impression of some things, but I just didn’t see anything worth investing in and WotC’s decision to completely pull out of the PDF market didn’t help.

WoD:

Anyone here have any experience with the old or new World of Darkness? The Mage and Vampire lines are starting to look interesting.
Post edited August 11, 2011 by MasterFoobar
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KneeTheCap: I have huge interest in these pen & paper RPG's, but I've never been able to play one. Never :(

I don't know if there's a dedicated group in my region, though I would most likely lack the courage to go there even if there was.

And none of my friends are into PnP games...
My group split up and none of my current associates are interested in RPGs, so I kind of know the feeling. Except that I actually used to play in semi-regular games, so I do miss it.
If you can find the right party, it's a lot of fun.
You could try to get some people together to play online or play by e-mail if you really want to try it.
the World of Darkness is part of my PnP gaming. But few people play it
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Landeril: the World of Darkness is part of my PnP gaming. But few people play it
old or new world of darkness?
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Landeril: the World of Darkness is part of my PnP gaming. But few people play it
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MrWilli: old or new world of darkness?
Both. Mage and Vampires mostly, though I have a werewolf character.
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MrWilli: old or new world of darkness?
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Landeril: Both. Mage and Vampires mostly, though I have a werewolf character.
Just wondering how complex is mage and vampire, well the new ones.
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Landeril: Both. Mage and Vampires mostly, though I have a werewolf character.
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MrWilli: Just wondering how complex is mage and vampire, well the new ones.
Its about like playing AD&D after learning D&D lol. Some of the clans are gone in the newer Vampires but Mage is pretty much the same.
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MrWilli: Just wondering how complex is mage and vampire, well the new ones.
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Landeril: Its about like playing AD&D after learning D&D lol. Some of the clans are gone in the newer Vampires but Mage is pretty much the same.
So it is that complex.
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Landeril: Its about like playing AD&D after learning D&D lol. Some of the clans are gone in the newer Vampires but Mage is pretty much the same.
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MrWilli: So it is that complex.
Pretty much. My Clan took a hit, so I didn't play the newer long.

Long Live Tremere!
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MrWilli: So it is that complex.
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Landeril: Pretty much. My Clan took a hit, so I didn't play the newer long.

Long Live Tremere!
Hell yeah!
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Landeril: Pretty much. My Clan took a hit, so I didn't play the newer long.

Long Live Tremere!
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MrWilli: Hell yeah!
A Brother Tremere?!