It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
keeveek: You do realize that fines for not buying a ticket on a city bus have their basis in statutory law (or regional law), don't you? So there's nothing extorting here, because that's the law.
Are you saying that the letters by the lawyer firms were illegal, ie. not based on law? Then of course they shouldn't have been sent. In fact, that lawyer firm should be sued for breaking the law, _IF_ they really were breaking it.

Also, you sidestepped my original analogy. It may be the person in question has bought a valid ticket, but has just temporarily misplaced it. So there can be false positives too, but if you feel that is the case, then you don't have to pay.
avatar
timppu: Also, you sidestepped my original analogy. It may be the person in question has bought a valid ticket, but has just temporarily misplaced it. So there can be false positives too, but if you feel that is the case, then you don't have to pay.
The fine is for not having a valid ticket on a time of control, everything else is irrelevant.

It's not a illegal threat, if it's based on law. CDProjekt used that kind of threat that could make some people pay the 'fine' because they were afraid they may pay more afterwards, even if they were not guilty of anything. People are usually afraid of taking legal actions against big companies, because.. well, they are big and have many lawyers. So many would pay CDP 300 just because they were threatened to pay more afterwards. And this is why it's illegal.

Ticket fines based on "pay 100 now, or pay 300 later" have basis in law here, so it can't be perceived as a threat.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by keeveek
The biggest problem is the height of the fine in these "cease and desist letters". As far as I understood it the lawyers can kind of freely decide how much money they want. And a threat of a law case is not nice either, since they have so much money and lawyers and what not else. If feels like old school piracy or at least waylaying.

If the fines would be legally defined, lets say: the game price + 100/200€ penalty and in a reasonable range, as it is for dodging the fare, then probably much less people would find it offending. It wouldn't feel like the lawyers enrich themselves upon some pirates and even some innocent victims (you never can exclude the possibility of false positives although you can minimize it by only fining repeating occurences).

edit: Same meaning as Keeveeks last post. :)
avatar
hedwards: ... I still haven't seen anybody posting any credible information that the letters were going out to people who didn't infringe on the copyright.
But it still might be the case although probably not very often. I've heard of old grandmas being sued for pirating some shooter which just sounds unrealistic. There might be a certain risk for everybody.

Pirates are also very talented in creating bad publicity. CDP stopped because "it didn't work the way they wanted it to work" - that's what they said then.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Trilarion
avatar
keeveek: The fine is for not having a valid ticket on a time of control, everything else is irrelevant.
Really? Wow, I feel so sorry for you guys. :D Here in Finland we do have an option to avoid the ticket fine, if you had e.g. just forgotten your ticket home. More info here, in Finnish:

http://www.hsl.fi/FI/matkustajanopas/hyvatietaa/Sivut/tarkastusmaksu.aspx

First you can try to settle it at the station afterwards with the bus company. If they still disagree and say you must pay the fine regardless (or you miss the date you should have paid the fine), you can make an official claim for rectification against the big evil bus corporation.

I presumed it goes like this in the rest of the civilized world as well, but apparently I was mistaken.

(I remembered wrong the fine would be 200€, it is merely 80€. Cheap!)

And yes, it is still possible that some 98 years old fearful granny pays up the fine, even though she didn't really have to. Just because she was so scared for to the big muscular ticket inspector ladies.

avatar
keeveek: It's not a illegal threat, if it's based on law. CDProjekt used that kind of threat that could make some people pay the 'fine' because they were afraid they may pay more afterwards, even if they were not guilty of anything. People are usually afraid of taking legal actions against big companies, because.. well, they are big and have many lawyers. So many would pay CDP 300 just because they were threatened to pay more afterwards. And this is why it's illegal.
So was it illegal, or not ("based on law")? If it was, then that lawyer firm should be sued for sending out illegal letters.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by timppu
For CDProject RED to have taken this to court wouldn't they have been required by law to present the way they obtained the evidence that these alleged pirates did actually download their game illegally? It seems fishy with that "100% accurate method" they had. I guess that's why they presented the letters to scare people into paying even though technically going to court CDProject RED wouldn't have enough to charge them.

As far as I know IP address is not enough (it only implicates a computer, not the owner of the computer unless evidence of the user of specific time) and other methods probably require to break several privacy laws and maybe even some constitutional laws depending on the country.

Aside from the apologizing I think it's decent of them to let us discuss this on their own forum, you know a lot of other companies probably would have shut down such discussion immediately (EA and Steam comes to mind).
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Nirth
avatar
timppu: Really? Wow, I feel so sorry for you guys. :D Here in Finland we do have an option to avoid the ticket fine, if you had e.g. just forgotten your ticket home. More info here, in Finnish:

http://www.hsl.fi/FI/matkustajanopas/hyvatietaa/Sivut/tarkastusmaksu.aspx
In here, you may bring your ticket and prove it that you had it, but forgot to take it (it has to have the date previous to the fine ticket) to LOWER the fine, not to avoid it.

But you are fined for not presenting a valid ticket at the time of control, basically. The controller will not investigate your life problems, memory issues or anything.

And again, in most civilized countries, a way to issue a fine and to avoid it / lower it is STATED BY LAW.
avatar
Nirth: Aside from the apologizing I think it's decent of them to let us discuss this on their own forum, you know a lot of other companies probably would have shut down such discussion immediately (EA and Steam comes to mind).
On the contrary, EA and Steam would have no problem with people discussing CD Projekt RED's controversial action!
ZING!
(80s Soviet joke)

Edit: also calling bullshit on the first line in that article ("CD Projekt RED’s DRM-free policy has made The Witcher 2 a popular target for piracy"). It was the DRM'ed version that was cracked and subsequently pirated (sauce: TET, probably).
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Starmaker
I think computer/owner doesn't have to be a problem legally. If I understood it correctly here in germany the contract signer of an internet connection is responsible for everything that happens with it. So if you have a WLAN and you do not secure it, your fault. If somebody hacked your connection or used it without your permission, you probably have to proove it or at least make it plausible. And this can seem unfair sometimes. That's why I think they only should go for repeated incidences after fair warnings and with reasonable fees, because then the probability of accusing somebody wrongly drops.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by Trilarion
avatar
Nirth: Aside from the apologizing I think it's decent of them to let us discuss this on their own forum, you know a lot of other companies probably would have shut down such discussion immediately (EA and Steam comes to mind).
avatar
Starmaker: On the contrary, EA and Steam would have no problem with people discussing CD Projekt RED's controversial action!
ZING!
(80s Soviet joke)

Edit: also calling bullshit on the first line in that article ("CD Projekt RED’s DRM-free policy has made The Witcher 2 a popular target for piracy"). It was the DRM'ed version that was cracked and subsequently pirated (sauce: TET, probably).
Hehe good one.

Yeah, I think after they released patch 1.1 the DRM was dropped. The patch was released only 9 days after game release but nevertheless that line was probably a PR stunt to cause more readers to be interested, as always.
avatar
keeveek: You do realize that fines for not buying a ticket on a city bus have their basis in statutory law (or regional law), don't you? So there's nothing extorting here, because that's the law.
avatar
timppu: Are you saying that the letters by the lawyer firms were illegal, ie. not based on law? Then of course they shouldn't have been sent. In fact, that lawyer firm should be sued for breaking the law, _IF_ they really were breaking it.
The difference that keeveek is trying to explain is that when a cop gives you a fine, there is a legal amount which you are supposed to pay and this is set by law. You know what the fine is, the cops and courts know what the fine is.

When a company threatens to sue you in court or pay us, they can pretty much arbitrarily set the cost you have to pay to avoid a court date. It's not that what they were doing was technically illegal (although it is now in Germany and the practice has been frowned upon if not outright made illegal elsewhere - companies have been sued over this practice), but that there were few to no rules regulating how it should have been done properly, if done at all. There were no standards of proof and no limits on the damages companies could ask for before the court date. Thus companies would set the price as high as they could that they though people would still be willing to pay to avoid a court date - i.e. at the price were the company can make a lot of money, but which the people would rather pay than go to court and a) risk losing more and b) losing their time. The lack of legal framework and protection for the recipient is what makes the practice so morally dubious. Add in the unknown false positive rate ... and you have the makings of a very lucrative shakedown.

I believe CDPR wanted to go after only pirates - heck I agree that companies should in principle get something from pirates once they are caught or that pirates should be forced to do community service if they can't pay. But there needs to be a proper legal framework on how to go about it, what the costs should be, etc ... and definitely some understanding of the false positive rate.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by crazy_dave
avatar
USERNAME:crazy_dave#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:58#Q&_^Q&Q#Thus companies would set the price as high as they could that they though people would still be willing to pay to avoid a court date - i.e. at the price were the company can make a lot of money, but which the people would rather pay than go to court and a) risk losing more and b) losing their time.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:58#Q&_^Q&Q#
avatar
Yeah the stress of course too.

You changed your avatar, sigh, I'll have to get used to the new look. :)
avatar
timppu: Also, you sidestepped my original analogy. It may be the person in question has bought a valid ticket, but has just temporarily misplaced it. So there can be false positives too, but if you feel that is the case, then you don't have to pay.
That's a very different type of false positive. There's enormous difference between "oh, I actually had a ticket, here it is" and "oh, I actually didn't download the game, here it… isn't". Good luck proving the latter.

Which is exactly what the whole kerfluffle is about. CDP cannot prove the game was pirated by person X and person X cannot prove they did not, in fact, pirate that game. Because of that, whoever has more money wins. And that's wrong on very many levels.

EDIT: Or, to rephrase, if you are caught by a ticket inspector on the bus, that's no false positive – you clearly and demonstrably were on the bus. But receiving a letter from CDP does not necessarily correlate with downloading TW2.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by bazilisek
avatar
Psyringe: He cares a lot about that specific part of the law, had some suspicions that CDR Project RED's anti-DRM stance might be too good to be true
It's funny how SimonG's spirit is hovering all over this thread, but I think you misunderstand him. I am of the same opinion on this matter – CDP goes DRM-free simply because it's brilliant marketing. They have found something that sets them apart, paints them as the good guys of the industry and can, in turn, create quite a dedicated fanbase (there have been surprisingly many people here buying TW2 "just to support the cause, I cannot run it on my rig anyway").

It really isn't "too good to be true" for someone who doesn't particularly care about DRM.
avatar
timppu: Also, you sidestepped my original analogy. It may be the person in question has bought a valid ticket, but has just temporarily misplaced it. So there can be false positives too, but if you feel that is the case, then you don't have to pay.
avatar
bazilisek: That's a very different type of false positive. There's enormous difference between "oh, I actually had a ticket, here it is" and "oh, I actually didn't download the game, here it… isn't". Good luck proving the latter.
You don't have to. They have to prove in court you pirated/shared it.

And in the ticket analogy, you can still get false positives, e.g. you bought a single ticket from a machine, but dropped it to street. How do you prove you had bought the ticket?

avatar
bazilisek: EDIT: Or, to rephrase, if you are caught by a ticket inspector on the bus, that's no false positive – you clearly and demonstrably were on the bus.
It is still a false positive, if you still had bought a ticket, but have misplaced it. Their intention is not to fine you for 80€ for not having the ticket with you, but for trying to ride the bus for free. That's why there's the process of claim for rectification.

Yet, it may also be you end up paying for a false positive too, like you had bought a single ticket, but someone stole it from you.

An old anecdote I read from a Finnish magazine a long time ago (claimed to be a true story that the column writer saw himself, but who knows for real, I wouldn't be surprised a similar anecdote is told elsewhere too):

A young punk rocker boy was riding a subway, and a cranky old lady was sitting opposite to him. The lady started cussing at the boy for how he looks, how the youngsters are good for nothing, break things etc. etc. The boy just tried to keep his cool and disregard the old lady.

On one station, the ticket inspectors come in and demand everyone to present their tickets. The old lady takes hers from the purse and holds it in the air victoriously. Suddenly the punk rocker boy snatches the lady's ticket, and swallows it.

The lady loses it and starts screaming: "The boy ate it! The boy ate my ticket! Did everyone see? The boy took it!". But rest of the passengers remained silent (including the writer of the column), for reasons unknown. Either they didn't see it, or didn't want to side with the cranky old lady.

The ticket inspectors approach the lady and the boy, and ask him whether that is true. The boy looks amazed and denies having done anything like that, which makes the lady lose it even more. In the end, the screaming lady is lead out of the subway, and the ride continues.

True or false, I don't know. But could happen.
avatar
timppu: And in the ticket analogy, you can still get false positives, e.g. you bought a single ticket from a machine, but dropped it to street. How do you prove you had bought the ticket?
But that's your mistake, not a mistake of the ticket inspector. The transport company is actually being nice to you when it allows you to provide your proof of purchase retroactively.

In CDP's case, the people who received the letter because of false positives did not do anything wrong. In fact, they didn't do anything at all.

You can call it both "false positives" if you like, but they each come from a completely different party in the whole process.
Post edited October 24, 2012 by bazilisek