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AFnord: I have to say that I am very surprised to hear that this system is in place. Usually when I talk to people from the US about any kind of market regulation, they are strictly opposed to it. I won't derail the thread into a discussion on market regulations and their value/danger, so I'll leave it at that.


Over here 3G (and soon 4G) are perfectly viable options when you need an internet connection, as long as you are not too far away from a civilized area. Does large parts of USA lack a decent 3G coverage?
This is what you get when you strip away the market regulation. Those folks talking about market regulation usually mean to get out of the way of ones that affect corporations in an adverse manner and leave the ones in place that benefit corporations.

Which leads to these sorts of situations. There's no reason why America, at least as far as major cities goes, can't be up there with the rest of the leaders, we just chose not to let the government get involved and are suffering the consequences.
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AFnord: I have to say that I am very surprised to hear that this system is in place. Usually when I talk to people from the US about any kind of market regulation, they are strictly opposed to it. I won't derail the thread into a discussion on market regulations and their value/danger, so I'll leave it at that.
Telecom stuff is a bit different, because Bell used to have a monopoly over almost the entire country, and there were huge antitrust suits decades ago to break them up and prevent anyone from getting that sort of dominance over the market ever again. Since then telecom regulations have gotten more and more involved and complicated... which mixed with the huge lobbying power that the (still) huge telecom companies have, makes the entire thing a humongous mess.

Basically, by law you will have more than one option, but it might not be a "viable" option, and you might have ONLY ONE alternative, as hedwards apparently does. Different states tend to handle it differently, also, adding another layer of complexity.
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keeveek: What I'm trying to tell is that statement "steam is bad because i had problems with it on my PC" is false.
However, people who do experience difficulties are more than welcome to express their grievances. Just how justifiable they are depends on, among other things, just how far they've gone to try resolve their issues.

This persons opinion can be useful to people who are in similar situations.

It reminds me of myself complaining about this "idiot" who reviewed a network cable but because he didn't like the yellow colour, decided to rate it as low. I remember my rather more intelligent friend reminding me that his opinion is still valid for people who concern themselves over the colour of a network cable.

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keeveek: Well, it's at least MORE false than statement "most people don't have problems with steam and they like it so it's good"
How can something be "more" false? It's either false or it isn't. It's also a bit of a strawman, because I could say "most people smoke, so it must be good." which is provably false when concerning health.

Also basing sentiment on quantity doesn't enough information to effectively access the quality of Steam (or a product). A lot of people might be using it but would rather not for various reasons but they don't have a viable alternative.

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keeveek: It's like I would say "Modern warfare sucks because i can't run it on my PC".
Sure, it might 'suck' for those who can't play it, but that's their opinion and it's up to you whether you care about it or not. (And yes, I agree it's a stupid position.)

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keeveek: When you say "people use it, like it, and it's profitable but it's bad because i don't like it" Gabe Newell laughs in your face.
No one has concluded this. Neither is Gabe Newell an authority on this subject.

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keeveek: PS. Why statement "it's popular because people like it, and what people like is good for them" is illogical?
A lot of people believed the Earth was flat.
A lot of people believed slavery was justifiable.
A lot of people drink excessive amounts of alcohol.
More...

Edit: cleaned up a little.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by Kaustic
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Trilarion: I doubt that.

And that too.

If you would have written by many people or many customers then okay, but like this - it's not true. :)
30+ million active accounts agree with me and disagree with you.
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Kaustic: A lot of people believed the Earth was flat.
Actually, they didn't.
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Trilarion: I doubt that.

And that too.

If you would have written by many people or many customers then okay, but like this - it's not true. :)
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Fred_DM: 30+ million active accounts agree with me and disagree with you.
Not every Steam account was made by a person that likes Steam or considers it even good. Many people only use those accounts for those games that require it and nothing else. Also there are a lot of accounts created for the sole purpose of stealing other accounts or hoarding gifts.
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OmegaX: Not every Steam account was made by a person that likes Steam or considers it even good. Many people only use those accounts for those games that require it and nothing else. Also there are a lot of accounts created for the sole purpose of stealing other accounts or hoarding gifts.
so all those poor people are forced to use a system they inherently dislike. oh no, how tragic.

come on. yes, 30 million active accounts doesn't equal 30 million unique accounts or 30 million happy customers, but Steam would never have become as popular as it is if the majority of its users hadn't been happy with it. that's just common sense.
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Kaustic: A lot of people believed the Earth was flat.
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bazilisek: Actually, they didn't.
Awesome, thanks for the link. Although it seems to imply that only the educated were aware of this during the early 19th century:

"there never was a period of 'flat earth darkness' among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now)

I shall have to investigate further when I have the time,
Cheers.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by Kaustic
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OmegaX: Not every Steam account was made by a person that likes Steam or considers it even good. Many people only use those accounts for those games that require it and nothing else. Also there are a lot of accounts created for the sole purpose of stealing other accounts or hoarding gifts.
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Fred_DM: so all those poor people are forced to use a system they inherently dislike. oh no, how tragic.

come on. yes, 30 million active accounts doesn't equal 30 million unique accounts or 30 million happy customers, but Steam would never have become as popular as it is if the majority of its users hadn't been happy with it. that's just common sense.
I never said it was a tragedy just that some people accept the Steam requirement but that doesn't mean they agree with you just by having an Steam account. You keep trying to speak for everybody and take offense when somebody points it out, just accept the point and chill.
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Kaustic: A lot of people believed the Earth was flat.
Economic laws have nothing to do with what people believe. Deal with it. Or educate yourself.

All your contrarguments go around "Steam can't be considered good, because some people dislike it" is flawed in any way. It's clear you never ran a business (even lemonade stand) in your entire life.

Im done :)
Post edited January 26, 2012 by keeveek
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Kaustic: A lot of people believed the Earth was flat.
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keeveek: Economic laws have nothing to do with what people believe. Deal with it. Or educate yourself.

All your contrarguments go around "Steam can't be considered good, because some people dislike it" is flawed in any way. It's clear you never ran a business (even lemonade stand) in your entire life.

Im done :)
That's quite some hostility.
Also there's no need for ad hominem attacks if you can't understand my premise.

My entire point was to try explain that just because you have an opinion does not give you the right to shove it down everyone's throat as if it's the only truth on the matter.

Some people like Steam, some don't. Each party has their own reasons and that is that.
Just because you think Steam is great (or bad) does not give you the right to force it onto others as if you're the only one who's correct.

I know I'm repeating myself here, and perhaps there is a language barrier, but I hope my point is clear.

PS: An amusing side note is that the entire model of Free Market Monetary Economics is based on a core tenant which is described as the "Invisible Hand" as proposed in "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. So I find it hard to understand that Monetary Economics has nothing to do with belief as it's based on it.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by Kaustic
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keeveek: Magicka was sold in over 1 million copies mostly because it was on steam. That's a fact.

Steam is that kind of DRM people like. It integrates the communities, has cool social features, easy to join multiplayer and more.

there's no better place for 4 player co op games than steam.
As I so often point out (and it is subsequently ignored) all the shit you like about Steam has fuck all to do with the DRM. In fact, many services have offered the same things in the past without a storefront/DRM scheme. They've all had varying levels of success, but the fact remains, if you like Steam you don't like the DRM, you like the other stuff.

Also, there is absolutely a better place for 4 person co-op, consoles are generally better at this.
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keeveek: They have computer stores in places where you can live a year without internet connection?
Yeah, dude, they have Walmarts nearly fucking everywhere. A lot of the US is still stuck on dial up and there's a lot of people that have cut their internet to try and save money. So yes, you're alienating people who might become big fans and also become big purchasers of your products when their economic circumstances change.
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overread: I've never had a problem running games in Steam Offline mode and generally most people don't have problems.
The internet is full of stories of people that do, especially people deployed in the military.
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hedwards: Keep in mind that the US is the 3rd largest country by both population and land mass, but unlike other countries with relatively low population density, we're not all in cities. There's plenty of folks in the middle of nowhere.
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SimonG: The infrastructure problems of the US are well known. (And I think were one of the presidents major "to do"s after that bridge collapsed.) The first world was rather late to the "broadband party", but that is more our problem than that of game publishers. Write your congressman about the lack of broadband. That is a issue that need to be adressed and fixed, and not circumvented.
We already gave a couple billion to the big telecoms and cable operators and they simply pocketed the cash (with nary a congressman saying shit, I might add), given how proudly most of our congressmen proclaimed they didn't understand any of the "technical" concerns when they were brought up by opponents of PIPA/SOPA (including concerns raised by the Department of Homeland Security) I wouldn't hold my breath for them doing anything about it, they don't care, they don't understand, and they're far more concerned about making sure a super-PAC doesn't blindside them during their re-election campaign than changing any of the first two issues.
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keeveek: People who don't own internet connection are rather not huge buyers for gaming industry, so I don't know why they should bother?
kreeveek, several people have called bullshit on this already, so put up a source or can it. It's simply bullshit.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by orcishgamer
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DodoGeo: It really disappoints to see a otherwise great community go full retard even when someone mentions Steam.
Hacking away at the interview like this is really childish and immature for most of the age group here.

As Magicka is the biggest offender here, did it occur to anyone that Steam functions as something different then DRM there?
It uses Steam and VAC as a multiplayer platform as well as a distribution platform.

As a student project it saves a lot of time and money having a finished solution for your game, so it's a developer decision and not a publisher imposing DRM.
They use Steam, no one actually cares about that, it's offensive, however, for him to lie about the fact that they do use DRM, as if we are too fucking stupid to notice. Half that interview was about Magicka so saying "we don't use DRM" and then hiding behind the fact that in house games possibly don't (haven't verified myself) is asinine and, frankly, I find it insulting that he thinks we're too dumb to notice.

We don't care that they use Steam, we care that they lie to our faces about it and act like we're too dumb to notice or too addicted to care.
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AFnord: I am always surprised by how far behind large portions of the US is in regards to broadband connections. I've been on 100mbit connections for roughly 8-9 years now, and before that I had a 10mbit connection which i got back in 99.

And even if you can't get a connection like mine, how about a mobile internet connection? Or don't your telecom companies offer that?
Mobile connections are on a carrier basis and usually have bandwidth caps of around 250MB - 2GB per month. They cost half what cable broadband does and are way slower. They are no kind of deal, they are something you buy when you literally have no other choice.
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hedwards: At present there are roughly 2 dollars flowing from urban areas to rural areas for every one tax dollar they put into the pot. In the mean time the infrastructure is crumbling and the rural folks are demanding more spending cuts to the things that urban voters want.
And often, this is shit like bridges. Literally there are people who'd rather see a 100 year old bridge fall down than pay a 5 dollar surtax on their vehicle license fees (so 5 dollars every year or two) because "I don't use it." What a bunch of fucking tools.
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keeveek: Some movie critics say "Avatar is awful"
You're misunderstanding the critics' job, their job is to evaluate it as a piece of cinema, as a piece of cinema Avatar is actually awful shit, a poorly executed Dances with Wolves dressed up with a lot of special effects and explosions (as if the special effects are what made Dances with Wolves good in the first place). That is not to say Avatar is not fun to watch, it generally will be for many people. It's still a shitty piece of film, just like the average Jason Statham movie, simply happens to be fun to watch.
Post edited January 26, 2012 by orcishgamer
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keeveek: because most of the people who use it - enjoy it.
Enjoying something is not the only reason people do something. No one "enjoys" the shopping experience at Walmart, they go their for prices and convenience. You might find very soon that Steam was the Walmart of DD services and that the new players kick their ass and take their lunch money because really all Steam had going for it was low prices and rapid, early expansion (ironically just like Walmart). That might not happen, time will tell, but it's simply facetious to claim that people must like Steam because they use it.
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orcishgamer: facetious
I think you mean fallacious :)