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Aliasalpha: Atkinson is obviously aware of the effects on the economy and on the international appearance of australia (He'd fucking well better be, I wrote him a letter explaining it in detail) but frankly I think he's scared to change his position
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CyPhErIoN: now that would be interesting reading. Chance of seing it appear somewhere ;)

Nah not got a copy anymore. Basically broke down a very rough estimate of how much a game like fallout 3 being banned would cost thelocal economy and how it mae us a laughing stock
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Catshade: I heard that most retail stores in the US won't sell AO-rating games...Do they refuse to sell unclassified games, too?

I think so, yes, meaning that accepting an AO rating or having no rating at all both mean committing retail suicide. This, of course, means that publishers who rely heavily on US retailers are at the mercy of the ESRB.
Post edited September 17, 2009 by Mentalepsy
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michaelleung: Just for that last bit, he just got himself an extra strip search at the airport.

What have Customs done to offend the government recently?
The best thing that can happen is EA/valve decide not to change the game and take one for the team. Preventing people from access to a high profile title such as this would go a long way to getting the word out, awareness and support for R18+.
Imagine the complaints that would have spawned if Fallout 3 or GTA3 had actually been banned and Australians blocked from buying it while the rest of the world was raving. Instead games are just refused classification, changed and released and the discourse fades as quick as it appeared, repeating every 3 months.
Post edited September 17, 2009 by chaotix
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Ois: This Joins Necrovision (altered and allowed for sale)
whoa, what was wrong with necrovision and what did they changE?
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Catshade: I heard that most retail stores in the US won't sell AO-rating games...Do they refuse to sell unclassified games, too?
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michaelleung: I don't know. It just means they can't have that neat badge on the front that says E, T, M, or AO. It doesn't mean anything.

It means that all of the major retailers and 99% of the minor retailers won't sell the game. The ESRB might be voluntary on paper, but in practice, it is not. Even the AO badge is a black mark on a game, as the country's largest gaming retailer, WalMart, won't sell any games with it. Our system might be slightly better that Australia's, but it still leads to censorship as decided by people who happen to be severely lacking in common sense.
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chaotix: The best thing that can happen is EA/valve decide not to change the game and take one for the team. Preventing people from access to a high profile title such as this would go a long way to getting the word out, awareness and support for R18+.
Imagine the complaints that would have spawned if Fallout 3 or GTA3 had actually been banned and Australians blocked from buying it while the rest of the world was raving. Instead games are just refused classification, changed and released and the discourse fades as quick as it appeared, repeating every 3 months.

You are attributing a sense of activism to Valve/EA that frankly, they just don't have or is far too easily overridden by their desire for money.
Post edited September 17, 2009 by cogadh
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chaotix: Imagine the complaints that would have spawned if Fallout 3 or GTA3 had actually been banned and Australians blocked from buying it while the rest of the world was raving. Instead games are just refused classification, changed and released and the discourse fades as quick as it appeared, repeating every 3 months.

Pfft, complaints do nothing. Imagine the unbelieveable explosion of piracy
i wonder how it will affect the release via steam...
"This content is not available in your region"?
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Aliasalpha: "This content is not available in your region"?

yeah i hate that line of text :s
i think it's got some subliminal messages inside it
o ye trusted gamer
certainly don't go looking on revered trustfull torrent sites to search an illegal copy because we won't sell it to you legally.

"You are attributing a sense of activism to Valve/EA that frankly, they just don't have or is far too easily overridden by their desire for money."

The latter could unwillingly create the former. If a cost-benefit analysis shows that it just isnt worth modifying and resubmitting a game, publishers simply wont release a game in Australia. Midway's Narc never saw a release in Aus after it was RC. Though the scenario is unlikely for a high profile game, its not out the question. Especially with Digital Distribution.
"Pfft, complaints do nothing. Imagine the unbelieveable explosion of piracy"

From the OFLC 2007-08 annual report
"The Classifcation Board received 169 complaints in relation to the classifcation of computer games.
136 complaints were received in response to reports that the publisher of Grand Theft Auto IV modifed the game for classifcation in Australia in order to gain an MA 15+ classifcation. These complaints also referred to the absence of an R 18+ classifcation for computer games.
Seventeen complaints were received about the RC classifcation of Soldier of Fortune and seven complaints were received about the RC classifcation of Dark Sector. These complaints also referred to the absence of an R 18+ classifcation for computer games.
Single complaints were received about other titles. These include that Alone in the Dark (M) was classifed too low, that Postal 2:Share the Pain was classifed RC, that the computer game Bully: Scholarship Edition (M) received a classifcation due to the themes in the game and that the content of Bioshock (MA 15+) was too violent.
The Classifcation Board also received 553 complaints that were specifcally in regard to an R 18+ classifcation for computer games. 550 complaints were concerned about the absence of an R 18+ classifcation for computer games in Australia and called for its introduction. Three complaints did not support the introduction of this classifcation category for computer games."
http://oflc.gov.au/www/cob/classification.nsf/Page/InformationCentre_AnnualReports_AnnualReports
Though the OFLC itself doesnt have the power to introduce an R18+, they are closely linked to the Attorney-Generals Dept. who legislate the ratings system.
edit: the 07-08 report is a fascinating read for anyone interested in the subject. It's unfortunate that the OFLC has to bear the brunt of the complaints, despite not actually being opposed to an R18+.
Post edited September 17, 2009 by chaotix
On the one hand, as an Australian this angers me because it is a form of poorly managed censorship.
On the other hand, I don't care about L4D2, as I am one of the many frustrated LFD1 owners.
Oh sorry. I don't "own" steam software. Subscriber. *rolls eyes*.
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Ois: You might want a different link, as reasons were given: in this article
And the full report on why: here
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michaelleung: So if minors shouldn't see it, it's an instaban? That's worse than banning Ezri from the forums.
And in the US, the ESRB is OPTIONAL. You don't need a rating to sell a game. I'm not sure about PEGI though. This is ridiculous. This is what happens when you don't specify for increased freedoms for Christmas.

PEGI was optional but shops that sell games don't sell to anyone under the age limit anyway. The BBFC ratings are the law (15, 18 RATED GAMES), now that's being abolished however. Only PEGI can rate games and they are enforced by law now. Which freaking sucks since PEGI rates anything with a gun in it 16+ or higher, no matter if there is no blood or gore in the game. Also 15 (BBFC) rated games (quite a few games actually including Half Life 2) are now rated 18+. Dammit.
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evilguy12: PEGI was optional but shops that sell games don't sell to anyone under the age limit anyway. The BBFC ratings are the law (15, 18 RATED GAMES), now that's being abolished however. Only PEGI can rate games and they are enforced by law now. Which freaking sucks since PEGI rates anything with a gun in it 16+ or higher, no matter if there is no blood or gore in the game. Also 15 (BBFC) rated games (quite a few games actually including Half Life 2) are now rated 18+. Dammit.

At least PEGI actually do their jobs and rate things, so that they can be released. That's not something that was very true of the BBFC. I'm glad they're no longer a problem.
TBH I don't care who rates the games as long as there are as low as possible. Which PEGI aren't. The BBFC only banned about 5 games as well. Nothing really that bad compared to Australia.