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General discussion (archive)Obama wins re-election(435 posts)(435 posts)
(435 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 07, 2012
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Rohan15: Thank you.
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Fesin: i really don't wanna get into a American political debate, but doesn't "Libertarianism" in the US actually mean that the states can tell you what to do, instead of the federal government?
And if I'm right, do people really think that's an improvement?
Well, no, not really.

Libertarians here would probably prefer that the States have more power than the Federal government, because if 1 State becomes tyrannical, you can leave. But if the Federal government becomes (it's not already?) tyrannical, there's no way out but to leave the country entirely.

But American libertarian beliefs are way broader than this. They are:

-Anti-war
-In favor of legalizing drugs.
-Lower taxes
-Limited government
-Free enterprise
-In favor of legalizing other "victimless" crimes
-Anti-torture
-Pro-privacy

Etc.

That's the *mainstream* of American libertarianism. That doesn't define all of us, that's just the mainstream.
Posted November 07, 2012
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Fesin: i really don't wanna get into a American political debate, but doesn't "Libertarianism" in the US actually mean that the states can tell you what to do, instead of the federal government?
And if I'm right, do people really think that's an improvement?
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stoicsentry: Well, no, not really.

Libertarians here would probably prefer that the States have more power than the Federal government, because if 1 State becomes tyrannical, you can leave. But if the Federal government becomes (it's not already?) tyrannical, there's no way out but to leave the country entirely.

But American libertarian beliefs are way broader than this. They are:

-Anti-war
-In favor of legalizing drugs.
-Lower taxes
-Limited government
-Free enterprise
-In favor of legalizing other "victimless" crimes
-Anti-torture
-Pro-privacy

Etc.

That's the *mainstream* of American libertarianism. That doesn't define all of us, that's just the mainstream.
Pretty much my viewpoint, though mine are a tad different in some aspects.
Posted November 07, 2012
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Fesin: i really don't wanna get into a American political debate, but doesn't "Libertarianism" in the US actually mean that the states can tell you what to do, instead of the federal government?
And if I'm right, do people really think that's an improvement?
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hedwards: That's rather optimistic. It's more like nobody can tell you what to do and hopefully everybody chooses to be civil. It's the result of reading Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged and being too stupid to understand why we went away from that in the first place.

Libertarianism in the US, is often a cover for anarchism and fascism. I'm sure there are some genuine libertarians out there, but they generally don't get much notice.
How do you compare anarchism with fascism? Wtf?

Anyway, yeah, I use my libertarianism to cover for my anarchism! LOL
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Libertarianism in the US, is often a cover for anarchism and fascism. I'm sure there are some genuine libertarians out there, but they generally don't get much notice.
I'm not sure how to respond to this, so I'll try to keep it constructive.

You are VERY wrong.

While you may meet some anarchists that identify themselves as Libertarian, that does not represent the majority of the Libertarian party or movement. The majority of us are conservatives that want less government intrusion in our lives, among other things. While this may come across as anarchist to people that want a massive government dictating their choices, it doesn't exclude constructive use of government.

As for fascism, that's pretty far from the truth as well, even more so than accusing us of being anarchists. The very ideals of the Libertarian party would be to protect the people from a fascist government, not form one.
Post edited November 07, 2012 by Shinook
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Libertarianism in the US, is often a cover for anarchism and fascism. I'm sure there are some genuine libertarians out there, but they generally don't get much notice.
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Shinook: I'm not sure how to respond to this, so I'll try to keep it constructive.

You are VERY wrong.

While you may meet some anarchists that identify themselves as Libertarian, that does not represent the majority of the Libertarian party or movement. The majority of us are conservatives that want less government intrusion in our lives, among other things.

As for fascism, that's pretty far from the truth as well, even more so than accusing us of being anarchists. The very ideals of the Libertarian party would be to protect the people from a fascist government, not form one.
Can I just say - I find it absolutely hilarious that I admitted to being an anarchist before you made this post stating that we're not anarchists.

I don't know, I still disagree with the way he phrased it, in that I'm not trying to "cover" anything, just think that anarchism is the logical conclusion of libertarianism, so they're one and the same for me.

But definitely agree with you about the fascism statement.
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Libertarianism in the US, is often a cover for anarchism and fascism. I'm sure there are some genuine libertarians out there, but they generally don't get much notice.
That's interesting, I once made the same argument in another forum (libertarianism in it's pure form actually being a form of anarchism) and was told by Americans I'm an idiot.

Now, I don't know much about the Libertarian Party or Gary Johnson, but Ron Paul, who is somewhat the poster-boy for American libertarianism doesn't object to the drug war, or illegalizing abortion or gay marriage, he just wants to give the states the power to do this things.

So if you're in a state who makes every form of abortion illegal, you're fucked in Ron Paul's belief system - right?
Post edited November 07, 2012 by Fesin
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Libertarianism in the US, is often a cover for anarchism and fascism. I'm sure there are some genuine libertarians out there, but they generally don't get much notice.
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Shinook: I'm not sure how to respond to this, so I'll try to keep it constructive.

You are VERY wrong.

While you may meet some anarchists that identify themselves as Libertarian, that does not represent the majority of the Libertarian party or movement. The majority of us are conservatives that want less government intrusion in our lives, among other things.

As for fascism, that's pretty far from the truth as well, even more so than accusing us of being anarchists. The very ideals of the Libertarian party would be to protect the people from a fascist government, not form one.
Like I said, the ones that get the attention are like that. I specifically stated that the ones that are more reasonable usually don't get much attention.

A lot of that has to do with the Ron Paul being the standard bearer these days.
Posted November 07, 2012
It's times like this I wish I had the foresight to bookmark the thread in which someone tried to convince me that Romney was a shoe in for the presidency.
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Nothing? google President Obama's accomplishments, it's been a very long time since a President got that much accomplished in only one term.
In the last 2 years (I said 2, not four)? Meh, I don't think so. However, it all depends on what you deem an 'accomplishment I suppose. It would be nice if he could pass a budget for once; he hasn't gotten that accomplished in 4 years. Not even when his party owned both houses of congress in 2009 and 2010.

Regardless, neither party really speaks to me any longer. So, I am fine with the inevitable gridlock that is to come. The less legislation that gets passed, the better off I'll be. At least if recent history is anything to go by. ;)
Posted November 07, 2012
USA USA USA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETrr-XHBjE

Very, very happy about the outcome. What is the cherry on top of Obama winning the election is the fact that Romney is likely to get the popular vote. Which in term erodes (hopefully) the GOP support for the electoral system.

The GOP is on its breaking point. Hopefully the Tea Party movement looses traction when the economy gets back on track.

It always good to see when values like freedom, patriotism and liberty win against elitism, ignorance and fear. And whatever the Tea Party might say, it wasn't Romney's "filp flopping" or his move to the middle that lost the election. It was his clinging to the right and their ridiculous idea of man they have.

And just for good measure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg
Posted November 07, 2012
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hedwards: Like I said, the ones that get the attention are like that. I specifically stated that the ones that are more reasonable usually don't get much attention.

A lot of that has to do with the Ron Paul being the standard bearer these days.
How does Ron Paul come off as an anarchist or fascist?

Sorry if I appeared hostile in my first post, it wasn't intended, your post took me off guard a bit, heh.
Posted November 07, 2012
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Fesin: That's interesting, I once made the same argument in another forum (libertarianism in it's pure form actually being a form of anarchism) and was told by Americans I'm an idiot.

Now, I donät know much about the Libertarian Party or Gary Johnson, but Ron Paul, who is somewhat the poster-boy for American libertarianism doesn't object to the drug war, or illegalizing abortion or gay marriage, he just wants to give the states the power to do this things.

So if you're in a state who makes every form of abortion illegal, you're fucked in Ron Paul's belief system - right?
I'm a libertarian, and anarchist *AND* an American and I agree with everything you said, don't think you're an idiot at all.

I'm pretty sure Paul is against the drug war, flat out, completely.

The rest of it, you may be right. But, honestly, the libertarian view is to get government out of marriage altogether so I'm sure ultimately that's where Paul would go.

I'm sorry I don't have much time to get into this but I think the discussion is complicated because it has a lot to do with American history, I'm not sure how much of a history of federalism there is in Austria.
Posted November 07, 2012
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SimonG: when the economy gets back on track.
if it gets back on track. I have my doubts.
Posted November 07, 2012
Mitt Romney is conceding on TV right now.
Posted November 07, 2012
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SimonG: USA USA USA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETrr-XHBjE

Very, very happy about the outcome. What is the cherry on top of Obama winning the election is the fact that Romney is likely to get the popular vote. Which in term erodes (hopefully) the GOP support for the electoral system.

The GOP is on its breaking point. Hopefully the Tea Party movement looses traction when the economy gets back on track.

It always good to see when values like freedom, patriotism and liberty win against elitism, ignorance and fear. And whatever the Tea Party might say, it wasn't Romney's "filp flopping" or his move to the middle that lost the election. It was his clinging to the right and their ridiculous idea of man they have.

And just for good measure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg
This always fascinates me about non-U.S. people. Why do you hate our electoral college so much?

I mean, there's a lot of stuff about the U.S. that understandably rubs people the wrong way. But what's the big deal with the electoral college?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Obama wins re-election(435 posts)(435 posts)
(435 posts)