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jamyskis: As controversial as it may sound, I do agree with Donald Trump on one thing: the United States is not a democracy. It's by and large a plutocracy, although I suspect that it is not plutocratic enough for Trump. As people have said here, political influence can be bought by financing campaigns, and major lobbying bodies such as the RIAA, MPAA, 'big oil' and the AHIP exert considerable influence over policymaking.

In fact, looking back over the history of the US, I don't think it ever has genuinely been a democracy. It was certainly even worse in the 1800s.
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SimonG: That is also why the party with the most money won. oh wait. Well then ar least the canditate with the richest friends. oh wait...

honestly, Europeans have to get off their high horse. Especially considering the democratic deficit of the EU.
You know better then anyone on this forum that there are strict legislations regarding marketing of presidential campaign in Europe.. In France at least.

You have, unlike the U.S a limited amount of money each candidate is entitled to spend.
Don't remember the exact numbers, it's been years since my course of Constitutional Law.. but it was far more reasonable then the amounts being dropped in the US.
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StingingVelvet: It's a Representative Republic, and those reps can be heavily influenced by money. This is nothing new. As said earlier by others though, grass-roots campaigns and well-meaning interest groups can influence as well, as does responsibility before a free media.

Straight democracies don't work, basing everything on majority rule. How long would civil rights have taken if it was straight majority rule?
I agree, I'm not necessarily extolling the virtues of 100% democracy, which I believe to be massively overrated anyway, but the extent to which money influences representatives in America is massively disturbing. It's this that makes it a plutocracy. A plutocracy in its own right would not be a bad thing, if it could be established that everyone has the same opportunities to make money and if wealth were only earned by fair and honest work, being proportional to integrity and honesty. Sadly, they're not.

Civil rights have always come about by way of prominent civil disobedience (Rosa Parks anyone?), but such civil disobedience brings with it the risk of civil war, and America is probably the one western country teetering closest on the edge of civil war with its profound ideological divisions in society. In America, civil rights have only ever won out against religious and traditional interests, never against financial interests.
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SimonG: honestly, Europeans have to get off their high horse. Especially considering the democratic deficit of the EU.
I never claimed that Europe was any better.
Post edited November 07, 2012 by jamyskis
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jamyskis: Civil rights have always come about by way of prominent civil disobedience (Rosa Parks anyone?), but such civil disobedience brings with it the risk of civil war, and America is probably the one western country teetering closest on the edge of civil war with its profound ideological divisions in society. In America, civil rights have only ever won out against religious and traditional interests, never against financial interests.
I'm listening to Glenn Beck right now, to hear him cry, and he almost seems to be building toward advocating for civil war. He also told people last night to buy guns and pull out their investments.

That's really fringe though. Americans are way too comfy for revolution.
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Every American who voted for Obama is either a complete moron or an inconsiderate asshole who does not give a shit about real issues like the national debt, inflation, underemployment, unemployment, or that coverup of the Benghazi incident. I am one of the real Americans who voted for political improvement by voting for Romney instead of the ones who fell for the red herrings like contraceptives or "women's rights."

Every American who voted for Obama should have gotten miscarried. This country needs a military coup to save it kind of like what happened in Chile in 1973.

May an assassin's bullet find its way through both Obama and Biden. Death to the Democratic Party AKA the Demographic Party AKA the National Socialist American Freeloaders' Party.
LOL
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keeveek: LOL
Indeed.
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infinite9: Every American who voted for Obama is either a complete moron or an inconsiderate asshole who does not give a shit about real issues like the national debt, inflation, underemployment, unemployment, or that coverup of the Benghazi incident. I am one of the real Americans who voted for political improvement by voting for Romney instead of the ones who fell for the red herrings like contraceptives or "women's rights."

Every American who voted for Obama should have gotten miscarried. This country needs a military coup to save it kind of like what happened in Chile in 1973.

May an assassin's bullet find its way through both Obama and Biden. Death to the Democratic Party AKA the Demographic Party AKA the National Socialist American Freeloaders' Party.
I'm trying to figure out whether you're trolling, parodying or are just a moron.

This is precisely what I was talking about above.
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infinite9: This country needs a military coup to save it kind of like what happened in Chile in 1973.
so...
you want an army to take over. to abolish constitution, remove any rights one has.

You want guys who spend 600 billion dollars a year on trying to figure out how to kill people better and more efficiently to actually run a country?
Post edited November 07, 2012 by lukaszthegreat
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infinite9: Every American who voted for Obama is either a complete moron or an inconsiderate asshole who does not give a shit about real issues like the national debt, inflation, underemployment, unemployment, or that coverup of the Benghazi incident. I am one of the real Americans who voted for political improvement by voting for Romney instead of the ones who fell for the red herrings like contraceptives or "women's rights."

Every American who voted for Obama should have gotten miscarried. This country needs a military coup to save it kind of like what happened in Chile in 1973.

May an assassin's bullet find its way through both Obama and Biden. Death to the Democratic Party AKA the Demographic Party AKA the National Socialist American Freeloaders' Party.
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jamyskis: I'm trying to figure out whether you're trolling, parodying or are just a moron.

This is precisely what I was talking about above.
I am giving my honest thoughts just as the Obamabot who started this post gave his.

The only morons are the ones who re-elected the piece of shit and I hope much of them get stage 4 cancer.

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infinite9: This country needs a military coup to save it kind of like what happened in Chile in 1973.
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lukaszthegreat: so...
you want an army to take over. to abolish constitution, remove any rights one has.

You want guys who spend 600 billion dollars a year on trying to figure out how to kill people better and more efficiently to actually run a country?
I demand the reduction of bureaucratic costs in the government, a balanced budget, the reigning in of inflation, reduction of federal bureaucracies, the repeal of an overly flawed "health" bill, the reigning in of over-regulation, and a transfer of funds from government desk workers to actual servicemen.

That is what I demand. It would also fulfill my demand for justice for the Benghazi and Operation Fast and Furious coverups.

The coup in Chile was probably one of the only military coups of the past century that actually did good by saving the Chilean economy.
Post edited November 07, 2012 by infinite9
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jamyskis: I'm trying to figure out whether you're trolling, parodying or are just a moron.

This is precisely what I was talking about above.
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infinite9: I am giving my honest thoughts just as the Obamabot who started this post gave his.

The only morons are the ones who re-elected the piece of shit and I hope much of them get stage 4 cancer.
wishing a death upon people with whom you disagree. Hardly a civilized opinion. As citizens of the world I think it is good that you and your people are not in charge of the most powerful nation.
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kodeen: What I enjoy is that we spent $6 billion on campaign advertising this election and nothing changed at any level of government. Money well spent.
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SimonG: Any source for that number? Preferably not the onion.
Sure, although it does sound like an idea The Onion would think up.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-2012-campaign-costs-6-billion-20121031,0,7880273.story

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infinite9: May an assassin's bullet find its way through both Obama and Biden.
Oh hey, a felony! Radiculs.
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infinite9: [snip]
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lukaszthegreat: wishing a death upon people with whom you disagree. Hardly a civilized opinion. As citizens of the world I think it is good that you and your people are not in charge of the most powerful nation.
Agreed.
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infinite9: The only morons are the ones who re-elected the piece of shit and I hope much of them get stage 4 cancer.
Your voice of reason has swayed me with its wisdom. I am a born-again conservative.
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infinite9: The only morons are the ones who re-elected the piece of shit and I hope much of them get stage 4 cancer.
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StingingVelvet: Your voice of reason has swayed me with its wisdom. I am a born-again conservative.
Where is JCD Bionicman he would love to see this :)
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StingingVelvet: Your voice of reason has swayed me with its wisdom. I am a born-again conservative.
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Elmofongo: Where is JCD Bionicman he would love to see this :)
The last I saw of him, EnigmaticT said that JCD was likely a troll and JCD got really pissy about that. Don't know if that means he finally got incensed enough to leave, or if he was banned.