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Psyringe: In order to _only_ have opposite-sex marriages, you have to specifically exclude the same-sex ones. You have to spend time and effort to sit down and write code that specifically checks the gender of the involved characters, and specifically says "No" to marriages of the same sex. It's a bit different from "not programming a wheelchair" or similar comparisons that have been made. The only way to not have gay marriages in a game that allows opposite-sex marriages, is to make a conscious decision to write code to exclude them.
That’s probably true in this case, but other games may have to factor in things like existing dialog in to this. If a fully voiced acted piece of dialog mentions a character’s gender or sexuality, then altering that dialog or making additions to it may be problematic.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by MasterFoobar
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iphgix: I am against mandating that a game company allow ANYTHING in a game that they develop or distribute. I think that the governments in the world get their noses into way too many things as is. So the people are right to complain if they want a developer/distributor/whoever to add content that they want. That said the vocal minority almost always seems to get what they want, you know.
Precisely, the government shouldn't be telling Nintendo whether or not to include depictions of homosexuality in their games. But, the people have a right to push Nintendo to do the right thing by including their orientation in a game that's about living ones life online.
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IAmSinistar: Marginalising a struggle with language like "hissy fit" does no one any favours. If you feel you are under-represented, you can either fight for it as others are doing, or you can resign yourself to remaining invisible. You are of course free to do the latter, but mistaken if you think that puts you in a superior moral position.
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jepsen1977: Keep in mind I'm talking about "hissy fit" in relations to media like games, movies and books - NOT real life. In RL I would be right there with you fighting for equal rights for LGBTs. But when it comes to fiction, art and creative freedom I don't like the demand to be included from gays or females. Again it's great if we can get more gay, disabled, female etc. protagonists in our games but I don't think you can demand it if you also want to maintain creative freedom for devs.

It's the demanding tone and the shame tactics I take objection too here, where if games don't have gay or female characters in them then it MUST be because of discrimination against minorities and not just because the devs chose not to include it due to time or monetary reasons or perhaps they just didn't know about it or forgot. So it's absolutely fine to ask for or make them aware of or remind them of LGBT inclusion in games but please stay away from the boycotts and the shame tactics because it's not always for malicious reasons that gay options are not in a game.
But, where do you draw the line? One of the things that keeps minorities down is a restriction on the depictions in the mass media. Surely the government shouldn't be making mandates, but the consumers are completely the right group to demand equal treatment.

Now, if this were a game where you were playing somebody else, I think that would be different..
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Psyringe: When you program a game, and include marriage, then - by default - gay marriages are always in. They don't need to be specifically "included". If you just program a feature that allows characters to marry, then there is nothing which would prevent same-sex marriages.
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Vestin: Thinking along these lines, one would also have to set up a concurrency check... which makes me wonder, mostly on a personal level - what's your take on polygamy? If you look up the data, it's not only shunned, it's outright ILLEGAL in most of the "Western World", yet on an ethical level it might be difficult to reasonably prove that a consensual union between more than two people is somehow deeply aberrant.
Then again - if I really wanted to raise eyebrows, I should probably mention the Mut'ah marriages instead. More novel, similarly eye-opening. ;P

Sorry, but I very distinctly remember that on our Intro to Social Anthropology we were first given a rich (if suspiciously specific) definition of marriage that, afterwards, got completely dismantled lecture by lecture, as we've learned of a bevy of different customs and cultures.
People say that, and it's BS. The reason why polygamy and polygyny are typically illegal is because it ensures that a portion of the population can't get married. The FLDS had to find reasons to excommunicate 2/3 of the males in order for there to be enough women for the men that remained to be married.

What's more, cultures that have polygamy don't always have rules that require the person marrying multiple people to be capable of supporting all of them.

Multiple marriage itself is something that has very real problems associated with it in the same way that marrying children off to adults has inherent problems.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by hedwards
Marriage in heart is one thing (always exists) and marriage in state (codified and bestowing benefits) is quite another.

It is not as much as the concept of marriage that is challenged, as anyone could always be bound as to their choosing, but as to the state bestowing benefits on one marriage vs another.

State does not belong in it, from either side.

Change codification so neither side benefits; remove marriage from tax liability, etc.

Fair is fair, see how many like it :-)
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IAmSinistar: That's a fair question, and I admit there needs to be a cut-off point because the spectrum of human identity and expression is too vast to incorporate in a single game. I would say that in this particular case, a game designed to simulate real life, that excluding a group which is in all likelihood larger than the entire population of the United States is a bad move. In the same way it would be to include religion as a choice but then omit Catholicism or Judaism, both of which have appreciable numbers.
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jepsen1977: As said before Nintendo is a conservative company that wants to keep a family-friendly image and same-sex marriage is not legal in Japan nor in the US. Not including gay options in a life-sim is not the same as discrimination. It would be nice if the option was there but Nintendo do have the right to not include it.

I am myself disabled and I own about 1400 computer games and do you know how many of those that feature a disabled protagonist? That's right, zero, nada, nill, 000, not-a-one! So is this a clear case of discrimination against people like me from game developers - no, not at all. Would it be nice if the next Assassin's Creed game, Call of Duty, Splinter Cell or Thief game would have a main protagonist with some form of disability? Sure, but I understand that the entire world does not revolve around me and since disabled people are such a minority that I can't expect the majority of gamers to want what I want and it doesn't make me throw a hissy fit or scream about boycotts because I don't get my way.
You've got me thinking about games with physically disabled protagonists now!
Apparently, there was a Dare Devil GBA game:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/gameboy-advance/daredevil
(he's blind and all)

And isn't the guy in Crysis supposed to be pretty injured with mobility problems without the suit on, or something?
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MattyNOAA: Nintendo, particularly Nintendo of America, have always tiptoed around Christian conservatives here in the US. I remember back in the 80s when Japanese NES games were brought over here, they were scrubbed of any religious symbolism that might be deemed offensive.
ooh 'Game Theory' just got picked up by The Escapist, I really liked the new ep on there so I was checking out the pre-Escapist YouTube eps, this one is relevant, especially to this^ point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdmJXHJLZ6M&list=PL35FE5C4B157509C9
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Fever_Discordia
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hedwards: People say that, and it's BS. The reason why polygamy and polygyny are typically illegal is because it ensures that a portion of the population can't get married.
Sounds to me like we're rationing people... to people.
"Oh, you're an item now, are you? ONE ITEM PER HOUSEHOLD :|!"

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hedwards: What's more, cultures that have polygamy don't always have rules that require the person marrying multiple people to be capable of supporting all of them.
In some cultures they don't even support the single one they can marry ;P.
Also - it's not like only a single party in a marriage must be responsible for the income...

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hedwards: Multiple marriage itself is something that has very real problems associated with it in the same way that marrying children off to adults has inherent problems.
I don't disagree, but is this enough to legally limit people in how they live their lives?

From a detached, logical standpoint, one might as well claim that childbearing isn't necessarily something everyone should be involved in, as it can do more harm than good to the society as a whole. In spite of this - we don't very much regulate human reproduction, leaving it up to the individuals. Where do you draw the line, and why does it happen to conveniently be around where our current cultural customs end ;)? Of course - I'm not saying it should be complete anarchy...

As a side note - perhaps we could use more media depiction of polygamy or more instances of it in games. If for nothing else - for flavor and variety...
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tinyE: Man the trolls are really coming out of the woodwork for this one.

Well I'll leave them to their ignorance while I continue to evolve. :D
Personally I'm actually slightly disappointed by the level of crazy to gawk at (for a general internet discussion, from the GOG forums remaining a nice, friendly place to hang out perspective I guess its more positive)

It seems that the Gender/Sarkesian threads get more off the rails and vitriolic than this - does this mean that the guys around here feel more threatened by women than gay people? Not sure what to read from THAT...
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Fever_Discordia
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Psyringe: When you program a game, and include marriage, then - by default - gay marriages are always in. They don't need to be specifically "included". If you just program a feature that allows characters to marry, then there is nothing which would prevent same-sex marriages.
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Vestin: Thinking along these lines, one would also have to set up a concurrency check... which makes me wonder, mostly on a personal level - what's your take on polygamy? If you look up the data, it's not only shunned, it's outright ILLEGAL in most of the "Western World", yet on an ethical level it might be difficult to reasonably prove that a consensual union between more than two people is somehow deeply aberrant.
Thoughts about polygamy crossed my mind while I wrote my post, but I decided to not drive the argument into that direction since polygamy is a more complicated issue than homosexuality or race. Seeing that you already participated in this thread, I should have known that you would pick it up anyway (this is meant as a compliment btw ;) ).

Anyway, you already mentioned the core point (at least for me personally): "consensual". As long as everyone involved wants to live that way, I don't see a problem. (In practice, this kind of automatically limits the size of such groups, because the bigger they grow, the less likely it will be that everyone agrees to include another person into the relationship.)

A problem, though, is that polygamy as a cultural standard often comes along with extreme gender inequality (as in, only one gender is allowed to have multiple partners of the opposite sex), and also inequality within one gender (the privileged individuals of that gender might scoop up a lot of the "available" individuals of the opposite sex, leaving the less privileged with very low chances to find a partner). So, while I'm not against polygamy per se, I think it has implications that its proponents should be wary of.

But that's a complex issue that would probably fit better in it's own thread, I think. ;)
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Psyringe
"Polygamy"
Shaw's best work IMO though I was never a real big fan of the musical.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by tinyE
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Potzato: I don't think many Europeans really feel offended/relieved by such an omission.
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Psyringe: Sorry that I picked you two, I could have picked a couple others for the point I am going to make, and chose randomly ;)
Not a problem :)

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Psyringe: I see many comments calling this an "omission" or a "decision to include or not include". Actually things are a bit different, and that may be part of the problem, at least for some of those who feel indeed discriminated by such a decision.
I agree this is all about perspective. This is more a case of "hanlon's razor" : I don't think the game was intending to exclude anyone, but just trying to encompass the more mainstream behaviors (and so not spending time implementing and testing ""minor"" features).
For instance, here are some more or less far-fetched questions I have about the game :
- Is there a possibility to have a secret lover ?
- Can you be an 'outlaw' polygamist ?
- Can you sleep with your dog in the same bed ?
In a nutshell, is there a limit that devs HAVE TO reach but not overstep ?

In videogames there is a difference between things you cannot do because of morality (torture children, throw kittens at walls, ...) , and things you cannot do because of lacking features (having the exact same skin color as I have in real life). We are currently discussing the second case, and I think we can ask why the feature is missing, not being offended that the devs forbade us same sex marriage.

In all cases, the devs shouldn't do "minimal communication" on the issue, because that is a dismissive stance.

Edit : ninja'd on the polygamy. That's no surprise.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Potzato
Video games are art and artists can implement whatever they want.
Gosh, the most absurd thing about this is, that these people actually want to force their social habits upon artists while claiming, that others force their social habits on them. This hypocrisy really blows my mind.
I never have seen a video game character that has my social habits, ehrmagerd, now I must nag around and sue someone! -.-*

It's like attacking Leonardo da Vinci, because there is no gay dude in the portrait of Mona Lisa, with the difference, that it's not even a good video game but just some crap.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Klumpen0815
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Klumpen0815: Video games are art and artists can implement whatever they want.
Gosh, the most absurd thing about this is, that these people actually want to force their social habits upon artists while claiming, that others force their social habits on them. This hypocrisy really blows my mind.
I never have seen a video game character that has my social habits, ehrmagerd, now I must nag around and sue someone! -.-*
While I think you make a point, since when is sexual preference a "habit"? You don't call having blond hair a habit or being right handed a habit.
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tinyE: While I think you make a point, since when is sexual preference a "habit"? You don't call having blond hair a habit or being right handed a habit.
Since there never could be made a genetic link to it, although it was claimed for decades without any proof.
Turned out to be wrong, it's a matter of social development, so the comparison is invalid, although many people dye their hair.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Klumpen0815
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tinyE: While I think you make a point, since when is sexual preference a "habit"? You don't call having blond hair a habit or being right handed a habit.
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Klumpen0815: Since there never could be made a genetic link to it, although it was claimed for decades without any proof.
Turned out to be wrong, it's a matter of social development, so the comparison is invalid, although many people dye their hair, most women here in my area actually.
So you are strait because you were raised to be strait? You weren't born with any natural attraction to the opposite sex?
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Klumpen0815: Since there never could be made a genetic link to it, although it was claimed for decades without any proof.
Turned out to be wrong, it's a matter of social development, so the comparison is invalid, although many people dye their hair, most women here in my area actually.
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tinyE: So you are strait because you were raised to be strait? You weren't born with any natural attraction to the opposite sex?
*sigh*
You want me to write, that it's normal for the reproduction of my species to be straight and other preferences (including Asexuality etc..) are created by some circumstances and then you want to start some BS, right? Forget it. I don't care enough for other peoples sexual preferences for stuff like that.
Post edited May 08, 2014 by Klumpen0815
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tinyE: So you are strait because you were raised to be strait? You weren't born with any natural attraction to the opposite sex?
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Klumpen0815: *sigh*
You want me to write, that it's natural for the future of my species to be straight and other preferences are created by some circumstances and then you want to start some BS, right? Forget it. I don't care enough for other peoples sexual preferences for stuff like that.
No, I don't argue with people like that. I just leave you behind and feel sorry for you. :D