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General discussion (archive)New Tropes Versus Women Video!(803 posts)(803 posts)
(803 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 29, 2013
Yeah, I'm pretty surprised as well. This might be one of the last proofs why GOG community is simply better! We only have two mysoginistic trolls in this thread!
Posted May 29, 2013
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keeveek: Everything in the world is about sex. Except sex. Sex is about power.
Hahahahaha - you win!

OW knew his shit.
Posted May 29, 2013
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keeveek: ...
The martyrdom is idolized beyond rationale. The trope you described is one of reason why I don't watch war movies. They are usually more like a fantasy about human willpower than an actual war movie.
It's also quite popular to have a gay character or couple sacrificing themselves for a heterosexual character or pair.

I haven't played Zelda, so I can't comment on that one. As for whole Damsel in Distress category, Anita said that the third part will be about characters in distress done right, so I prefer to wait for the last episode to make something of it.

I do agree that it is still hard to find a female character who isn't there for being an object of romance or desire, being saved, being a victim (screaming gals in the background, corpse in the next crimi episode), being something else then mom or grandma or being "Here is your bag" kind of person. In every category of entertainment.

I'm familiar only with Alan Wake and Max Payne from all these examples. For me, Alan Wake compensates the damsel in distress with other women have a personality different from "caring homemaker" and act independently. Bonus is that they have covered like similar percentage of body as men, very rare feature. Max Payne 1 and 2 have Mona. Yes, she is there as an object of Max's desire yet she also can take care of herself and I remember her mainly for her skills. Max Payne 3... Well, it has only the selection of finest women. Dead, kidnapped, crying, begging, "whoring", addicted prima donnas.

That's what I see as the goal. The problem isn't that there are damsels in distress but that there isn't a balance. Men have always control, even if they are kidnapped&rescued they act tough. If they aren't, they are portrayed like a wuss (that isn't okay too). Women are almost always portrayed like wusses... uhm, pardon, "fragile" and "tender".

And yes, keeveek, these tropes definitely affect a portrayal of both genders. I hope that Anita's series will give a birth to another series about these issues done by someone else and that it will raise awareness about a lack of diversity among male characters.
Post edited May 29, 2013 by Mivas
Posted May 29, 2013
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WBGhiro: Is this thread the public toilet of this forum? Somebody ought to clean it at least, it's starting to reek.
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TheEnigmaticT: I've been keeping an eye on the thread; as far as these kinds of discussions go, it's been rather well conducted. That said, I've also contacted a few posters via PM and explained to them the error of their ways.

Let's try and keep it civil, lest I be forced to dust off my Mallet of Loving Correction.
Thanks for not closing this (yet). I have been a little worried it was going to go off the rails a few times ...
Posted May 29, 2013
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Mivas: snip
What I was trying to say was Anita often misrepresented the women in some examples by herself. She literally marginalised the role of a character to being a damsel and a victim.

It's another serious issue - women who suffered domestic violence and abuse are seen as victims for their entire lives. They are seen by the prism of what happened to them, not what they do, who they are.

Like Batman said

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me " :P

Even though some characters are only described by what happened to them (like Max Payne's wife), but most of the time, those characters have backstories and are much, much more than just damsels in desperate need of being saved.

And in many examples, they are not objects of men's desire. Link and Mario doesn't try to save Zelda and Peach to bone them. Their goal is much greater than anything they would personally want.

Mario doesn't try to save Peach because he wants to have sex with her - he wants to save her, because without her, the "Mario Land" is doomed. And it says a lot about how important Peach actually is. Princess Peach isn't his prize - she is the only person who can hold the kingdom in peace.

Anita says things like having power and independence is the only thing that actually matters - automatically dismissing any other character traits women in video gaming have, just because they are disempowered at some point of the plot.
Post edited May 29, 2013 by keeveek
Posted May 29, 2013
Yes she did which is what set me off again I apologize for my incessant rant at the beginning of this thread! what she said really aggravated me it exposed all past and current hurts in me.

I go postal when that happens!
Post edited May 29, 2013 by fr33kSh0w2012
Posted May 29, 2013
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langurmonkey: A part of a game where there is violence against a woman or a part of a game where a woman is helpless is just simply a part of the story.
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BlueMooner: The point she makes in her video, which you also appear to have missed, is not about a single instance where a female gets treated badly. There's nothing wrong when ONE story just happens to have a women getting screwed over. When it happens all the time in every game though, then it becomes a problem. When the portrayals are so often one-sided with women always being weak, never being strong, always being victims, never being heroes, then you have a systemic problem. The point she makes is that the portrayals of females as weak victims far outnumber the portrayals of them as competent saviors. That's a problem.

The issue isn't about any single portrayal. As she mentions, you can probably find justifications in a game for a particular situation. It's about how these portrayals of women come up over and over and over and over in video games across the industry. It's the widescale pervasiveness of the problem that she's addressing.

Why do you play games Langur? Is it because you like feeling badass? To feel more powerful then other NPCs in the game? To accomplish tasks nobody else can do? Women gamers play for the same reasons. How do you think they feel then when, instead of pwning the game and everybody in it, somebody else wins the day instead?

How do you think they feel when they are shoved aside so a male can beat the BBEG? Do you like playing games where the game itself makes you weak and helpless, and does so because of your gender? How can you feel leet and pwn, when the game itself tells you you're weak, stupid and incompetent, so let's hurry up and get someone ELSE in here to fix things?

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langurmonkey: For example, in the game Mafia II, several times, you have to rescue helpless male characters. And if you believe there isn't 10000x more violence towards male characters in games, you haven't played a lot of games.
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BlueMooner: I haven't played Mafia, so I can't comment. The point about the violence is not about COMPETENT women suffering violence. It's about helpless women suffering violence. She has no problem with women warriors being killed or cut down. Watch 10:40 - 11:10. The men you kill a zillion times in games are always COMPETENT male warriors. How often do you fight helpless, crying males who just lie on the ground, with no weapons, never attacking, while you cut them down?
It doesn't matter if there is one instance or many instances of damsels in distress and violence against helpless women. They are just stories in games that are catering to the majority of gamers, straight males. And straight males usually like playing as straight POWERFUL males. Power shared is power lost so therefore, females have to be made weak. Otherwise, the straight male wont feel as powerful in the game he just purchased for $50 and therefore make the experience much less enjoyable for him. Another reason females have to be made weak is because most straight male gamers want to be a knight in shining armor for a woman. They grew up in cultures that brainwashed them into thinking, being the knight in shining armor is the way to go. Well can't be a knight in shining armor if the damsel in distress is Xena Warrior Princess. So in order to satisfy the majority of their customers, the gaming industry gives the majority of their customers what they want. This is to ensure the money keeps on flowing. This is a capitalist world we live in. Money is #1. These games are not against women. They are simply made for the majority of gamers(straight males). Not due to misogyny or sexist beliefs but due to people wanting to make as much money as possible. Games that require you to play as powerful females who have to suffer the horrible deaths of your helpless boyfriends to motivate you towards revenge isn't very appealing to most gamers(straight males). It's hard for straight males to get into such games because they can't imagine what it is like having boobs, an attractive female body and a boyfriend... Is this fair? No. I imagine it must be extremely annoying for female gamers but capitalism is a cruel bitch. If one day, straight females become the majority of gamers, you will definitely see a change. And I will not like this change because I wont be getting the games that I want anymore BUT I will not scream misandry and think there is a problem. I will not make a video trying to point out, many games are against men. Because then I'm being crazy. Seeing evil where there is no evil just like this woman. It bothers me very much that most stores in malls and other shopping centers cater only to women but I know this has nothing to do with misandry... I like to fucking shop too but in this world, $$$ is everything. Not fair but that is life.

To make things clear, my point is, these games she used as examples are harmless and innocent entertainment. And yes, things are very unfair for female gamers right now but that is capitalism for you.
Post edited May 29, 2013 by langurmonkey
Posted May 29, 2013
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ET3D: I think that's true, and violence in either direction is a problem. Still, in the context of this video what bothers me is that she discusses a connection between these games and general attitudes and how they tie to violence, when it's all just speculation. It's no better than blaming video games for a crazy person's shooting attack, and in possible worse, since it's even more tenuous.
As I said earlier, I don't think she makes a strong enough connection between games and real-world consequences. However it wasn't just about violence. She listed a variety of other near-subliminal effects relating to interpersonal dynamics. What many here seem to be missing though, and which she herself hasn't explored yet...

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ET3D: These tropes do present a problem in that they can alienate women who want to play such games. It would certainly be good if game creators gave female gamers more of a thought (and better yet, made women a regular part of game creation).
...is the effect of these roles for female gamers. The chainmail bikini can not only alienate females tired of such portrayals, but also deny women the outlet of playing as powerful, competent individuals.

Games give us the opportunity to have false experiences, that is, things we will never actually do such as seize a castle or fly a starship. Despite them being false, we can still have real emotions resulting from them. Most importantly, games can serve as an emotional "supplement" allowing us to experience emotions that are lacking from our recommended daily allowance. Games of empowerment for example, where the player dominates others in the game world, are popular amongst those feeling powerless in real life. Being powerful, successful, rich and revered, even if only in a game, can be emotionally satisfying in the real world.

Women, who may struggle with power and respect issues in real life, may benefit greatly from being able to play games where they are the savior of the kingdom, the hero of the Norbon Galactic Empire, or the slayer of the Mongol Horde. When games continually portray them as big breasted victims, moaning for help, it's kind of hard to maintain the image of a strong, victorious woman. It's hard to derive the emotional satisfaction of being a powerful woman when games, as a whole, don't offer you that possibility.

It sucks when even games won't let you live out your fantasy.
Posted May 29, 2013
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Starmaker: snip
Are you looking for films like the ones in the Alleycat Rock and Stray Cat Rock series ?
Post edited May 29, 2013 by ne_zavarj
Posted May 29, 2013
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JMich: Don't you love it when we pleasantly surprise you? Doesn't it restore a little of your faith in humanity?
Personally I have NO HOPE or Faith in Humanity. I'm being serious the whole world has spiraled out of control!
Posted May 29, 2013
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Timelord1963: but at least they are (hopefully) saying something vile that they know is unacceptable and wrong to get a reaction rather than actually believing it, which is another level of scary.
I believe Freek was genuine in their post.
Posted May 29, 2013
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keeveek: ...
I see what you mean. The lack of context is actually something I would like to see improved. But that's also why I said I'm waiting for the conclusion. Maybe she chose to focus on the failing moments to raise awareness (I hope someone will counter that in non-hysterical manner if it's the case). Maybe she wants to unveil it step by step, so she makes sure she will deliver the message. Maybe that's what she plans to do in the next episode. Who knows. I give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

And how many times have you experienced a game with a man fulfilling Zelda's role?
Post edited May 29, 2013 by Mivas
Posted May 29, 2013
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WBGhiro: Is this thread the public toilet of this forum? Somebody ought to clean it at least, it's starting to reek.
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TheEnigmaticT: I've been keeping an eye on the thread; as far as these kinds of discussions go, it's been rather well conducted. That said, I've also contacted a few posters via PM and explained to them the error of their ways.

Let's try and keep it civil, lest I be forced to dust off my Mallet of Loving Correction.
This topic of feminism brings out the worst in humans.

Any man disrespecting women can never be a real man.
Posted May 29, 2013
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Elmofongo: Any man disrespecting women can never be a real man.
True, but let me ask you this:
Is opening the door for a woman, or offering to carry your (plural) groceries yourself disrespecting her or not?
And would you let a man do the same for you (ie open the door for you, or carry your groceries)
Posted May 29, 2013
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Mivas: And how many times have you experienced a game with a man fulfilling Zelda's role?
Well, I remember situation when playing as a knight you had to save the male KING from opression to save the kingdom, although I can't really say many names.

I do agree that women in captive are way, way more common

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JMich: And would you let a man do the same for you (ie open the door for you, or carry your groceries)
My personal free of charge slave?

DO WANT!
Post edited May 29, 2013 by keeveek
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)New Tropes Versus Women Video!(803 posts)(803 posts)
(803 posts)